linkov, what you are saying is a bit confusing, so you baked the normal map ( tangent space ? ) with separated uvws and uvws etc , and you applied one SG to it and the quality modifier ? if thats so then no wonder it isnt working, you can literally use the same model you had and just apply the modifier and the shader for correct normals.
you are also using tangent space with object space options ?
if you change the smoothing groups AFTER you've baked down the normal map, regardless of any shader you use you'll get bad results. the reason for that is that changing the smoothing groups changes the surface normals, and that means that the normalmap itself will be bouncing light in the wrong direction.
try making one smoothing group, and rebaking, you may get better results. failing that, as johny says, keep the original model with the same smoothing groups as when you made the NM bake.
you are also using tangent space with object space options ?
I'm basically just clicking buttons without really knowing what they're doing. Sorry, I'm not tech guy.
Yes, initially I baked tangent space normal map, for using it with Xoliul's shader, and the process included using different SG for each UV piece.
Maybe I'm wrong, but after reading this whole thread I've got an idea what with this shader I can use my previously baked normal maps with my meshes without messing with SGs. So I've tried.
Anyway, after reading your post, I've tried to apply that shader to my mesh as it was before - with separated SGs - it doesn't work still. I've got no shading artefacts, but lighting is incorrect. And seams are visible now.
Also, I don't really understand why I need this new shader then, If i'm still gonna be breaking my UVs and SGs? Xoliul's worked fine till now. What exactly revolutionary is here?
not sure what I clicked next, but the lighting seems fine now, even tho I don't like visible seams. rebaking that thing is not an option for some reasons, I guess I'll try it on my next models.
Linkov: You are able to load meshes and bakes done with older methods the way you describe, you say you expect to do it without messing with smoothing, but then you change your smoothing right before you try.
With quality mode, you will see improvements even on meshes set up with lots of hard edges(smoothing groups) etc, these improvements will be relatively minor when you compare a re-baked mesh with one smoothing group with quality normals on and off.
As to turning on object space, well you'll see now that you're just creating a different problem when you do this, as object space maps contain an entirely different set of data than tangent, so ticking that when using a tangent space map will never be a solution.
well, we all started with trial and error at some point! So clicking around a bit is not a big deal.
Basically the "blueish" normalmaps are tangent-space, and the default "normal map" mode for the shader and many games. It's also the default mode for the modifier. The modifier + quality mode in shader assure that the optimal quality from the 3dsmax bakes can be achieved.
When you change your mesh without re-baking you loose quality, because the information about the mesh isn't the same anymore.
ok, tried it on another model, baked everything from scratch and its working now properly. one more question then - if I decide to put said model into UDK for example, will it be working?
That thing is delicious! Loaded a crappy old asset and well it worked :P Cant remember if I baked with Xnormal or Max tho.
Oh BTW I am loving how the fresnel is alpha blended instead of additive. Black rim for the win!!!
Now I wonder if we will soon see a patch update for all Unreal and Gears of War games in the coming week or so ? That would be so awesome, and a great boost for you guys...
Just wanted to say again how awesome this shader is.
I was wondering if you guys have suggestions for specific Ambient Cube maps (free to download)
And specific Reflection Cube Maps.
I would actually be willing to pay if I knew they were really good btw.
Also, if you know which cube maps work best in which slots that would be great!
Currently I have a number of cube maps downloaded, but I don't fully understand how they work, and sort of just try different things.
I have noticed that for reflection cube maps, having them mostly black seems to work well, and for Ambient Cube maps having the bottom area black and the top very light seems to work best.
Again, if anyone can fill me in, or link me to some cube maps I would really appreciate it!
Well, ambient cube maps represent the average ambient lighting from all directions, so for outdoor lighting scenes having something with a bright blueish top and darker bottom makes more sense (representing the sky).
Reflection cubemaps represent the surrounding environment, so technically these should be fairly similar to the ambient cubemap.
I often think of the reflection cubemap as a darker, sharper version of the ambient - you can often create a good pairing of cubemaps from a single source. You could use something like ATI's CubeMapGen to blur/tweak an existing cubemap in order to generate a good ambient cubemap from an existing reflection cubemap, or vice-versa.
Thanks for the feedback, Brad. Good use of environment cubemaps is critical to convincing visuals, yet online documentation is sparse. We're doing something about that and will be providing in-depth material, including information you won't find anywhere else.
I suggest checking up on hdri map tutorials for off-line rendering. They often use the same concepts. You can also use hdri in the shader.
For now, here's a barebones rundown:
-Photoshop: create a panorama picture
-HDRshop: Convert from polar panorama mapping to cross
-ATi's CubeMapGen: Convert to cubemaps, fixing mip seams. You'll need two: One for environment reflection (sharp) and one for environment "ambient" light (blurry)
Online tutorials are available for all of the above individual steps and should be enough to get you started.
Tried this on my blade runner pistol. The normal maps where baked in Xnormal and I then had to mangle them a fair bit to get rid of the seams. Despite all of this your shader still works.
You guys could have saved me some time and frustration if this had come out earlier
Getting tempted now to rebake the whole thing now.
as mentioned before, the quality mode will deliver best results with 3dsmax bakes, any other baker means using a different tangent-basis, means less quality.
catstyle: before your post edit you asked about the reflection slot.
This image has the direct reflection parameters ticked off in green. The full version ui for the same material is shown on the right. If you want to know anything about which features are available or what their names are you should check out a screenshot of the full version ui as it gives a clear overview.
Woah, Full version looks very cool! Even better than I would have imagined.
Thanks for the info Perna & MOP, I have actually been doing some digging around on the net and found some anwers from Ben Cloward. Last night I started using CubemapGen, which is also really cool. Such a simple app, yet so powerful. Had it all figured out in like 5 minutes.
Anyways, Ben has some really Awesome Cubmaps available that I highly suggest people download. He also explains in detail how to create your own HERE: http://www.lumonix.biz/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1170849816
[Edit] Using Ben's foliage cube maps now. Perfect for guns IMO.
Hi everyone.
First of all, thanks to 3Point Studios for sharing!
Just one things: I've installed it, I've the shader available, I can use it, but... I don't have any 3Point Quality Normals on my modifier list. I'm running on 3DS 2009.
Does anyone knows something about this issue?
Thanks!
EDIT : I've tried on 3DS 2010, and it works fine. So, more issue!
So, this works great in Max, but they still may not render in Mental Ray or some other engines correctly. And possible future of creating some kind of Map converter or something so the normal maps themselves will work elsewhere? Or would something like that be up to individual engine creators, like Unity or Unreal?
god3ila: Sounds like a problem that shouldn't occur. You may try to copy the relevant plugin (found in scripts) to a plugin directory in 2009 and see if that works. We're primarily using 2009 on this end.
Okay, I've tried different ways, but it still don't work. I've put the plugin to a plugin directory and I've got this error message at the startup:
I've tried to delete it and then reinstall it, I've also tried to remove other plugins that I've installed before, but I still don't have the modifier...
I don't know what's the deal. Computers are moving in mysterious ways... ^o^
Anyway, I'm now running on 2010. I think that was the signal to move on
First off, I see you fixed the flipping tangent space normals error. That's really great! I was thinking I was going to have to manually flip my normals for use with this shader (on models baked with xnormal).
Sorry if this has been asked, but does the shader support 2 sided objects. Basically, I don't want to backface-cull my planes, and by default that's how the 3point shader handles planes. I could have sworn there was an option for this but I can't seem to find it.
Looks amazing but Ive had no luck with max 2011.
--runtime error: FileStream cannot create: c:\program files\autodesk\3ds max 2011\scripts\3pointshader\3ds-maxversion.fxh
We've disabled the backface-cull toggle for performance reasons.
Almighty_Gir: I believe that you cannot force "no backface cull" when using this shader. That option has to be implemented in the shader itself.
Best option you have is to detach the planes you want double sided and use Xoluil shader on those planes (Xoluilshader has double sided option as a technique currently). You could use 3 point on the rest of the model, and it shouldn't be very difficult to get the materials all working together properly.
Well either that, or ask 3 point dudes very nicely to implement this into there code for future releases.
I find it almost always works better if I manually duplicate and flip the faces I want double-sided. It's more selective performance-wise, and I get better vertex normals for better shading. YMMV or course.
hey guys, i have a hard time trying to work out how to use gloss maps with your shader. I did a normal gloss map (greyscale saved in rgb mode). I also saved an alpha channel just to be sure. The whole thing was saved in PSD-format. The gloss just appears uniformly to be zero or very close to zero. I would love to get this working plz help me
psd is working fine with the shader.. No i found out it was due to intense reflecting blurring and a wrong gloss strength strength setting. works fine now. thx
So once again though, how does this address the main issue of the Max maps not working in many game engines... How does this utility help there? It makes them look amazing in the Max viewport, but do we have to sit and wait for game engines to implement it, or wait for Autodesk to change how their maps are baked?
Replies
1. Normals were baked in Max
2. Mesh was made the way it works with Xoliul's shader, meaning separated SGs and UVs
now, I've installed this new shader, made everything in one SG, applied the quality modifier.. and it doesn't really work.
any ideas?
you are also using tangent space with object space options ?
try making one smoothing group, and rebaking, you may get better results. failing that, as johny says, keep the original model with the same smoothing groups as when you made the NM bake.
I'm basically just clicking buttons without really knowing what they're doing. Sorry, I'm not tech guy.
Yes, initially I baked tangent space normal map, for using it with Xoliul's shader, and the process included using different SG for each UV piece.
Maybe I'm wrong, but after reading this whole thread I've got an idea what with this shader I can use my previously baked normal maps with my meshes without messing with SGs. So I've tried.
Anyway, after reading your post, I've tried to apply that shader to my mesh as it was before - with separated SGs - it doesn't work still. I've got no shading artefacts, but lighting is incorrect. And seams are visible now.
Also, I don't really understand why I need this new shader then, If i'm still gonna be breaking my UVs and SGs? Xoliul's worked fine till now. What exactly revolutionary is here?
With quality mode, you will see improvements even on meshes set up with lots of hard edges(smoothing groups) etc, these improvements will be relatively minor when you compare a re-baked mesh with one smoothing group with quality normals on and off.
As to turning on object space, well you'll see now that you're just creating a different problem when you do this, as object space maps contain an entirely different set of data than tangent, so ticking that when using a tangent space map will never be a solution.
Basically the "blueish" normalmaps are tangent-space, and the default "normal map" mode for the shader and many games. It's also the default mode for the modifier. The modifier + quality mode in shader assure that the optimal quality from the 3dsmax bakes can be achieved.
When you change your mesh without re-baking you loose quality, because the information about the mesh isn't the same anymore.
Thanks guys, thanks!!
Oh BTW I am loving how the fresnel is alpha blended instead of additive. Black rim for the win!!!
Now I wonder if we will soon see a patch update for all Unreal and Gears of War games in the coming week or so ? That would be so awesome, and a great boost for you guys...
I was wondering if you guys have suggestions for specific Ambient Cube maps (free to download)
And specific Reflection Cube Maps.
I would actually be willing to pay if I knew they were really good btw.
Also, if you know which cube maps work best in which slots that would be great!
Currently I have a number of cube maps downloaded, but I don't fully understand how they work, and sort of just try different things.
I have noticed that for reflection cube maps, having them mostly black seems to work well, and for Ambient Cube maps having the bottom area black and the top very light seems to work best.
Again, if anyone can fill me in, or link me to some cube maps I would really appreciate it!
Reflection cubemaps represent the surrounding environment, so technically these should be fairly similar to the ambient cubemap.
I often think of the reflection cubemap as a darker, sharper version of the ambient - you can often create a good pairing of cubemaps from a single source. You could use something like ATI's CubeMapGen to blur/tweak an existing cubemap in order to generate a good ambient cubemap from an existing reflection cubemap, or vice-versa.
I suggest checking up on hdri map tutorials for off-line rendering. They often use the same concepts. You can also use hdri in the shader.
For now, here's a barebones rundown:
-Photoshop: create a panorama picture
-HDRshop: Convert from polar panorama mapping to cross
-ATi's CubeMapGen: Convert to cubemaps, fixing mip seams. You'll need two: One for environment reflection (sharp) and one for environment "ambient" light (blurry)
Online tutorials are available for all of the above individual steps and should be enough to get you started.
You guys could have saved me some time and frustration if this had come out earlier
Getting tempted now to rebake the whole thing now.
as mentioned before, the quality mode will deliver best results with 3dsmax bakes, any other baker means using a different tangent-basis, means less quality.
where is that map slot? cant seem to find it
This image has the direct reflection parameters ticked off in green. The full version ui for the same material is shown on the right. If you want to know anything about which features are available or what their names are you should check out a screenshot of the full version ui as it gives a clear overview.
Here are the reflection mask params:
Thanks for the info Perna & MOP, I have actually been doing some digging around on the net and found some anwers from Ben Cloward. Last night I started using CubemapGen, which is also really cool. Such a simple app, yet so powerful. Had it all figured out in like 5 minutes.
Anyways, Ben has some really Awesome Cubmaps available that I highly suggest people download. He also explains in detail how to create your own HERE: http://www.lumonix.biz/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1170849816
[Edit] Using Ben's foliage cube maps now. Perfect for guns IMO.
First of all, thanks to 3Point Studios for sharing!
Just one things: I've installed it, I've the shader available, I can use it, but... I don't have any 3Point Quality Normals on my modifier list. I'm running on 3DS 2009.
Does anyone knows something about this issue?
Thanks!
EDIT : I've tried on 3DS 2010, and it works fine. So, more issue!
I've tried to delete it and then reinstall it, I've also tried to remove other plugins that I've installed before, but I still don't have the modifier...
I don't know what's the deal. Computers are moving in mysterious ways... ^o^
Anyway, I'm now running on 2010. I think that was the signal to move on
Sorry if this has been asked, but does the shader support 2 sided objects. Basically, I don't want to backface-cull my planes, and by default that's how the 3point shader handles planes. I could have sworn there was an option for this but I can't seem to find it.
Flip NormalMap X
Flip NormalMap Y
We've disabled the backface-cull toggle for performance reasons.
r_fletch_r: That landraider is coming along great, looking forward to seeing it textured!
--runtime error: FileStream cannot create: c:\program files\autodesk\3ds max 2011\scripts\3pointshader\3ds-maxversion.fxh
Sorry if I missed a fix for this in the thread.
Almighty_Gir: I believe that you cannot force "no backface cull" when using this shader. That option has to be implemented in the shader itself.
Best option you have is to detach the planes you want double sided and use Xoluil shader on those planes (Xoluilshader has double sided option as a technique currently). You could use 3 point on the rest of the model, and it shouldn't be very difficult to get the materials all working together properly.
Well either that, or ask 3 point dudes very nicely to implement this into there code for future releases.
I drag and drop the .mzp file in Max's viewport but nothing happens. I don't get the prompt or anything.
I tried running Max as administrator as well but then the drag&drop function don't work at all.
Any idea of what I'm doing wrong? ^^
rename it to .mzp and drag it into max.
Thanks for trying to help
Not following the question, can you rephrase please?
We've provided you with access to the technology so you won't have to sit and wait for the game engines to implement it.
3ds normal map bakes are very good as-is and there's no need for changes there.
(I'm new to 3DS and so far I'm not a fan, yet, but this awesome shaders make up for it)
http://i47.tinypic.com/fyg0p5.jpg