Go hard or go home to go hard
polycounter lvl 6
Hey guys, so Im at a bit of a crossroads atm and wanted some advice from people who actually know what Im talking about.
Im enrolled at a course on the other side of the world, I super enjoy it here, and would stay permanently if I could.
However,for this entire year I've had doubts about my education. They've come and gone, and it's making me go insane. So Im left with a choice, go home, look for an education there or stay here.
Essentially my biggest problem with the course is the fact that I feel we're not learning enough of things that are industry standards, we have barely touched on sculpting and PBR-texturing, a small dedicated lesson for that stuff only. Aswell as that we haven't been taught any sort of proper work ethic or pipeline and I feel that sometimes the course just appears unprofessional and lax. This makes me lose focus aswell and I feel it has impacted my learning negatively. What the course doesn't cover, we're told to learn at after-hours, which I don't mind, most of my skills should improve through my own effort. But I didn't pay for this to learn essentials on my own.
Now two of the course's teachers have helped me out tremendously and I feel I'm moving in the right direction with their feedback, I've improved a big deal compared to before, learned what I consider some cool stuff and some previous students and teachers come by to throw in a workshop or two and they seem to be doing well post-course with one or two recent taking it up to AAA levels. Obviously there is credibility to it. A chat with a student further into the course has told me that further in will be all I've asked for (we're abouts in the same lane of focus) and it'll get a lot more professional. Fingers crossed.
I am however torn with the criticisms listed and on the simple fact that even if there is better education back home, the thought of living there makes my heart ache, I just didn't feel at home in my own country and the fact was even more cemented when I moved. I've met great artists, and the little networking I've done has made me excited for a future here. It'd be so sad to let it go.
It all turned a bit rant-y, sorry about that. Hopefully it has some cohesiveness.
TL;DR : Educations feels real bad sometimes but has some great perks too. Don't want to go back to my home country. Missed oppurtunities if I leave.
Im enrolled at a course on the other side of the world, I super enjoy it here, and would stay permanently if I could.
However,for this entire year I've had doubts about my education. They've come and gone, and it's making me go insane. So Im left with a choice, go home, look for an education there or stay here.
Essentially my biggest problem with the course is the fact that I feel we're not learning enough of things that are industry standards, we have barely touched on sculpting and PBR-texturing, a small dedicated lesson for that stuff only. Aswell as that we haven't been taught any sort of proper work ethic or pipeline and I feel that sometimes the course just appears unprofessional and lax. This makes me lose focus aswell and I feel it has impacted my learning negatively. What the course doesn't cover, we're told to learn at after-hours, which I don't mind, most of my skills should improve through my own effort. But I didn't pay for this to learn essentials on my own.
Now two of the course's teachers have helped me out tremendously and I feel I'm moving in the right direction with their feedback, I've improved a big deal compared to before, learned what I consider some cool stuff and some previous students and teachers come by to throw in a workshop or two and they seem to be doing well post-course with one or two recent taking it up to AAA levels. Obviously there is credibility to it. A chat with a student further into the course has told me that further in will be all I've asked for (we're abouts in the same lane of focus) and it'll get a lot more professional. Fingers crossed.
I am however torn with the criticisms listed and on the simple fact that even if there is better education back home, the thought of living there makes my heart ache, I just didn't feel at home in my own country and the fact was even more cemented when I moved. I've met great artists, and the little networking I've done has made me excited for a future here. It'd be so sad to let it go.
It all turned a bit rant-y, sorry about that. Hopefully it has some cohesiveness.
TL;DR : Educations feels real bad sometimes but has some great perks too. Don't want to go back to my home country. Missed oppurtunities if I leave.
Replies
Also post your most recent work.
While its good to learn to use the programs used for sculpting and pbr, sculpting in particular takes a long time to get good in.
It is possible that your school isn't touching too much on it because it may be difficult to get work right after with a sculpting portfolio that is low quality.
My school (George Brown College) had this issue as did the other 7 schools in Toronto Ontario. Not one student had a character portfolio I would call industry ready.
This was mainly because most of the students wanted jobs right after and all the full year of sculpting couldn't help them. Many actively resisted learning it and practicing sufficiently.
They're work was just not that good, their eye wasn't trained enough, they had low speed simply because they weren't giving it enough time.
And PBR makes texturing quicker, but many studio's still refuse to use the programs mainly because most of the seniors don't use it. I mean the studio will get the software if you use it, but there's a learning curve there too. They have to trust you enough to accept that you know what you're doing.
You could learn PBR in a week, allegorithmic has lots of nice tutorials.
Your school is there to build connections and for networking. And also if you need a work permit to work after you graduate.
That's interesting to hear, I'd be much at peace if this is would turn out to be just me getting worked up over nothing and throwing the spaghetti, even more so if the problem was with me and hey, maybe it is. You telling me to post my recent work, made me freeze to think in my chair a bit, that maybe I just am frustrated that I haven't progressed the way I wanted to.
Here is a progression-thread of my 2D work, 3D is lacking as most of it is either at course or a billion WIPs. For the time being I'll say I feel confident in my 3D skills but the results are not fit for work yet:
http://polycount.com/discussion/190608/alchemicalss-journey-to-improving#latest
Still, the core of my fear is simply that there might be a better school out there and that the current one will not make me arrive where I want to be. The "lax" criticism is mainly stemming from the fact that I look at past students work and stuff they did with sketching trips and the like, it all seems as if us, the current batch enrolled when the course's enthusiasm ran out.
Read these:
Why 3D artists want to learn to draw/paint?
Becoming A Better Artist – Critical knowledge and techniques for today’s artists
...before making a determination in regards to your educational future. As a formally trained traditional Portraitist/Base Relief Timber Carver myself it's extremely worthwhile setting aside the time to do so or not...your call.
Im not quite sure what you meant in your post, could you rephrase? Seen and read those threads before, but I read them again, just need to know what you wanted me to take away from it.
If you finish another semester and another semester feeling like you don't really learn what you want but you can save that money and sign up for a really good online course that's also delivered by a pro artist that's working in the industry maybe weight both options.
Also ask that student more about the next semester and check if you're actually going to learn the same as they did because in my course every semester changed so much.
It's just the conclusion I've come to and what i would personally tell myself 2 years ago if i could but you need to check things before you decide anything and see what fits you.
Think about the things you want to learn in order to improve and have a good portfolio. Make a list of things you need to improve by X time to have a ready enough portfolio.
Secondly, as a self-taught artist, all i ever wanted was a mentor to tell me that "there are 10 things you need to know, this and this and that" and i would search the hell out of the internet, busting my _ss to learn and understand those principles. I would die to have a mentor look at my work and tell me where to focus and what is lacking,or what kind of problem is that i am facing.I've been searching and experimenting for hours and days to understand why my normal maps were bad, and none of the articles covered why. It was a matter of smoothing groups, or deleting history. Unfortunately people in this forum do not care enough to give critique midways,(unless it's a really nice piece so they will mostly congratulate you) nor can they look at your project real-time.
As for networking, man this is the dream for me. Even if you are not really good at networking, you will meet people and at the very least, get exposure. I am sitting in a 100k population town, in a country that has no 3d industry whatsoever, hoping to find a job by sending portfolios to the rest of the world. So if you have the luxury to pay for such a school in another country, you'd better stick with professors and make as many friends as possible, because if someone finds a job and their boss asks if they have anyone else to hire, they can point at you. Now i am feeling frustrated.Can you show my projects to your teacher and give me feedback? -.-
Being able to see where the ball is going in terms of tech and workflow is something that gives you an advantage in terms of skillset and employability.
I know Ubisoft Toronto uses PBR, though it gives leeway on the software used to the artist provided deadlines are met. I think its more about whether substance painter/designer is used by the artist to achieve the texture maps for use in engine.
PBR can be learned quickly, but I wouldn't say its an absolute necessity in every case (It has made my texturing easier though, so I can focus more on modeling and sculpting)
A friend of mine used to be hard-surface modeller and felt cheated at the end of his time at a animation-education (colloquial term for anything computer graphics based here) because it was handled sloppily with no enthusiasm from teachers to help students reach wherever they wanted to and he came out not feeling ready and cheated out of his money. His story made me wary that an education, how much of a privilege it is, can still be detrimental if it doesn't give you what you need.
Yes I can, though you'd be disappointed to know the 3D-model teacher has left for AAA, there is a compositer and character designer left, they all have generalist-training but probably not in-depth.
@maiu , cheers for the advice. The friendo of mine is currently at an internship, he's been doing two in the span of the past 6 months so he's doing well but I don't get in contact with him too much. He wouldn't be able to tell me what happens next year, only that he enjoyed it, he has commented on changes from last year tho and he agrees to that he felt the same way I did. That the first year here is essentially almost a gauntlet where only the hard-working and patient come out on top.
I have my own learning plan that I follow in my spare time, I feel that is what's been the key to my improvement this year, also attended a night-course another teacher was having privately outside of school for a while. Lotsa figure drawing, at least twice per week.
If you don't mind me asking, how did things go for you since you graduated?
I'm sorry if this post gets long, I just want to tell you that whenever something we like starts being necessary for us to survive, it sort of loses its appeal to us and we question if we trully like it. That is the laziness inside us that wants to have fun instead of working. Think of it like this: you study something you liked, would you prefer studying about something else, and keep what you like as a hobby? Work is always work and its mostly unpleasant
I can't be sure if I wrote that I find the course tedious, if so, I don't think that is my problem here. To learn things I find boring is fine, I can appreciate anything that makes me versatile and ready for anything life throws at me. If life was longer, I wish I could specialize and be a pro in everything relating to Game Art and Animation. Sadly, that may not be possible.
I want to make this clear, I am not questioning my career choice, I am questioning if my education is putting me on the right path to my career.
Terribly sorry if my response is shooting right past what you wanted to say. Perhaps, could you elaborate on what you meant?
Understanding what info is garbage and what is working for the industry is what seperates students who find a job from those who dont
Yes, definitely. You gotta keep an eye out for info that is just bogus. To be honest, I feel there has been no education on work-ethic or pipeline either, which would be the main attraction of a course, really. It's all a very lax atmosphere and it stresses me out. Been told several times to just "trust them" but I just look at student work from other schools, how the course just doesn't feel serious and how unprepared we all seem to be for the realities of the industry. It's like the teacher's aren't putting in any effort to teach us and it really does make you panic, especially when you feel like there are better and much cheaper options out there (that Im having my eye on), but you really like where you are at the same time and the potential future oppurtunities found through some networking.
Definitely, I don't get why demo reels are still peddled in most schools for non-animators. They'd be great for an outsider to gawk at, perhaps but not for the people you want a job out of.
What you can do as an individual artist working in a team environment, is work what you can, with what info you have, and ask questions (not too many, and be a nuisance to others). You also need to provide your work in progress and get feedback on what direction to take. Other than that, you have nothing to panic about. Sit down, calm yourself, and answer these questions truthfully to yourself: What can i do with what i have? What are my restrictions? How far can i take this with the restrictions i have? You dont need to know what the rest are doing, only the departments you work with.
No school, no college, no master can prepare you for the industry, at any type of job. This is why experience is required. Worry not, though. The market might be full of 3d artists, but the world keeps spinning, new artists will always get hired and no matter what level of skill you have, you will adjust your talent/self promotion until you find a job. What most young people worry about, is what will happen when they go out of college. Harsh reality? Most people do not find a job in their industry of expertise at once, like they wanted. Some people might get offered a job right after college, some people in 5 months, some people in 5 years. The portfolios you see that are really crappy are propably the ones who will have a harder time finding a job until they polish their skills better. But that is okay. Everybody works in places they dont like to support themselves in the begining, and for me, the crappy job i am at right now, gives me strength to keep polishing my skills and leave this place as soon as possible! You just keep doing the 3d assets that you like, take your time and make them work correctly and look correct for the style you are going for. Your projects might take longer than other students, but the other students will be hired after you. Hasty work is always visible in the eyes of the employer! To give you a solid example, i've seen some interior scenes here that have been made from people in 2 years in their spare time, while working somewhere else. Two years for a room, can you imagine? They make it up though for getting a really really nice employer and cash flow
This has me really confused and it sorta makes me depressed to read. If what you say is true, then what's the point of even going to any education at all? I feel as if the advice Im being given here is for me to be complacent and just take the scraps, of what I assume you're describing my current course as.
I'm not worried about job-placement, but the most effective way of getting eligible, Not neccessarily worried of graduating with no job: The issue lies in wether my current location/education is giving me 100% return or if going home to study will give me 100%.
The situation has taken a toll on my mood atm and maybe it's making me irrational. I feel torn between here and home-country's benefits to what I want to do. Wish I could take time to cool off but a decision has to be reached in 1-2 weeks for whatever preparation I want to do. My fault entirely for not running this by me sooner of course.
EDIT: I may have lost the plot entirely at the time of posting this, had a real bad day and lost my cool. I apologize, you meant well, and the stress of the decision and how I need to make it soon got to me. Shouldn't have had a whinge at you for giving me advice.
"This has me really confused and it sorta makes me depressed to read. If what you say is true, then what's the point of even going to any education at all?"
It gives you connections, knowledge, a certificate. Use your time there to speak to teachers, they can help you a lot, ask things, ask what's in the coming semesters. It can give you a lot, and it's good to stand out.
Whether a person goes to an art school or not, having a plan and working at home, researching etc is always the key to improvement.
It's good that you have a plan and you attend a course and learn on your own, keep doing that.
Still, I feel like it's up to me to make up for what I might not be getting out of a course. Not to say that there's no benefit from being at uni. I have to agree with maiu about making connections in school. My professors have repeatedly said that learning to work within a team is an extremely important trait. Also that getting along with classmates is essential as they can help you get jobs/ will be working with you in the industry.
I'm not sure what you mean about being taught work ethic, though. Seems like more of a personality trait than a learned skill.
Sorry if this is late
Its okay i might have showered my post with more "reality" than necessary, and it is totally for my experience and point of view. I'm sorry if that made you feel bad. From what you said though (about getting the 100%) i think you get too much into numbers, wanting to get the max potential. Nobody knows what the max potential is, just do what makes you feel better. I made the choice of going in a different school (unrelated to 3d art) and after that,i started working in my town, which i terribly want to escape from now, 28 years old. My gut was telling me 3d is my passion, from 13 years old, maybe less. I should've listened to my gut
I understand and see what you mean. I think the current course gives me what you mentioned, I know what's coming in the upcoming year. Enviroment art, pre-viz, production project and a term to finalize a showreel to send out to potential employers. Should one score internships during the next year, they'll be prioritized on top of the curriculum.
I like this plan, I do (save for the archaic task of making a showreel) my problem lies in as short as I can put it:
I feel like Im not getting enough out of it due to the enviroment and teaching feeling lax, it in turn stresses me out because I am raking up a huge student loan because its on the other side of the world. The gaming and animation industry here is on the rise however and I think I can get some good oppurtunities here, but is it enough to make the debt worth it?
I could go on a more professional and renowned course back home, it's cheaper too! But the place is (imo) overly saturated with game artists, no guarantee I'll get in and I just dread living there because comparably I like the culture and way of life where I am now a lot better, though I've been told that due to a shift in politics or something I might have to go back home after the course anyway. Im essentially gauging what the better caréer option is here. Regardless, I will follow my own study plan during my free time.
@Solid_Otter : I too think Maiu is correct and what I posted earlier was irrational. Sure, it would, that's where my self-study and my critique-requests move in but at some point I can't alone make the student debt be worthwile. I might aswell self-study in that case if it wasn't for the connections. Teamwork hasn't been a lot save for a smaller project and a big one scheduled for next year. I get along well with all of them, even got a personal-project going on with a buddy. I sometimes feel alone with my enthusiasm for this stuff but maybe Im being arrogant there.
I can't say I regard work-ethic as a personality trait but I feel it is more of skills in mindset and conduct. I would've loved if we got to know more on how to approach things in the industry in terms of how to work, learn and better effiecency. Though as someone else pointed out to me a while ago, this may be different to every workplace.
@Larry It's all good, I lost my marbles and that was silly of me.
Yeah, I think you're right. I have a pretty "loud" head, I like to rationalize everything and sometimes it can be a headache.I don't like when two options are gonna have to come down to my personal taste or gut feeling, haha. But I guess that is what has to be done, can't pace back and forth forever here.
First, where are you now currently and where are your from? (apologies if I missed this) I ask because that can change your situation, like if you're in the US now and are on Visa, I think leaving school means you have to leave the country. However if you are in a place now that has less opportunity than your home country that can change things too. We kind of need to know for better context and giving you better advice for this situation.
Generally student loans are rarely worth it... even for someone like myself who got lucky and did eventually make it in has huge regrets about taking out the number of loans I did. However the school experience can still be good for giving you a base network and creating a sense of friendly competition to push yourself and get better (if you have good friends). There are also alternatives to education with courses you can take online that might do a better job with the things you are looking for.
What do you want to do? I see that you have a thread for 2D art and that's great! Is that what you want to do though? If we know what you want to do we can better direct you.
Where would you want to work? I really empathize with feeling lost and directionless, it's sucks and it's not fun. However if you give yourself a target or a goal it can make it easier, and one of the easiest goals is figuring out the studio or IP you want to work at/on. For example say you want to work at Blizzard on Overwatch, you then find and follow all of the artists you can who work on that can use their work as a guide. You're goal is to then be just as good or better than the work they do.
Even when you figure that stuff out it is still good to give yourself a schedule and a plan, both long term and short term goals. For example when I graduated school, I knew I wasn't good enough to get a job, and I was determined to get better and be good enough in 2 years (took me about 3.5) That was my long term goal. My short term goals where to make characters every couple of months and post updates about once a week. For the longest time I kept to that and I completely replaced my portfolio about 3 times.
Then you have to figure out how to get yourself to focus and get into flow. Everyone works differently but generally removing distractions and separating your work space from a relaxing space helps. Find the right music, don't watch attention-intensive shows or videos, keep a list of things to do to keep you on track, pace yourself and focus on making things better as speed comes with time, use the pomodoro technique or some other way to time yourself. Build this as a habit that you do every day and learn to enjoy the process.
Bit of a brain dump but those are things that I have found to help.
I was a bit intimidated to mention it: Im Swedish, currently studying in New Zealand.
Going home would make education free, loans would be taken out for accomodation which would be much less. I just don't really want to live there, I guess that's the only hurdle here. But perhaps that's a very naive way to look at it, why live here in a place that gives you a lot of debt, a education you like but don't feel you're getting out enough of even if you really do like the current surroundings. Maybe that's the combobreaker I needed to get to here. Nothing is stopping me from coming back later in life with even less debt attached to my name... Hmm...
Concept Art and 3D Generalist, I know, this is the most hardest of paths to pursue but Im willing to do the heavy lifting. Perhaps it'll narrow down with time but right now it's what Im sticking to.
I will say 4A Games on Metro, Firaxis on XCom and Ninja Theory's Hellblade, for now, it weighs a bit higher than most but Im quite open to any really.
Right now I'm working analytically, I gauge where I am after a piece is finished and set the parameters for the next one that way, so far so good I think. The concept art and Modelling really goes well hand in hand right now, and I feel it's getting into a good rythm. I should really open another one for the 3D that I do.
@Larry I thought I did, but the original post was rewritten so much that it must've gotten lost with each edit. Pardon me, quite a big thing to leave out haha.
Cheers mate, really do appreciate it. On the risk of sounding real sappy, I got the same faith in you, even though your area might not have the industry, Im sure there's room someplace else, if not, working from home might not be too bad
If you do decide to go back to Sweden, definitely take advantage of the free college (even if it's not quite exactly what you want to do) and save up to take better, cheaper (relatively when compared to colleges) courses online that will give you a much better groundwork. I've made a list of places a few times before: http://polycount.com/discussion/comment/2590122/#Comment_2590122
Concept art is a good path, a difficult one, but it can be done. I generally advise students to not go the 3D generalist route as it's just not a common job anymore. Generalist work is usually work that can be taken up by outsourcers (who you can't compete with on a pure cost basis) and we're starting to see an industry trend where even indie studios can get larger budgets and will need specialists like their AAA counterparts. However if you purse the concept artist route, some knowledge of 3d can be greatly beneficial to you, helping cut down on concepting time by getting general perspective down or getting the basic body down in Zbrush that can be cleaned up later by 3d artists.
Pretty much I always encourage students, juniors and those looking to get their foot in the door to pick one discipline that they enjoy and want to work in, you can always branch out later.
Here is a good primer on what kind of stuff to have in a concept portfolio with characters:
Generally when starting out I really discourage the "open to anywhere" mentality, simply because it will keep you feeling lost and can get you stuck working on something you don't enjoy just because you need a job. Jobs you get (especially when starting out) can also give a bit of prescient for the kind of jobs you get later, because I can assure you it is super hard to be at a job for 8 hours a day drawing and then come home and do even more drawing. You will mentally burn out and can start giving yourself physical injuries where you have no choice but to take breaks for hours or days at a time.
So it's like if you really want to work on realistic styled work, but your first job is cartoony, you won't enjoy the job and then you have to decide if you want to use the cartoony work in your portfolio. If it's of decent quality, that will probably be a yes because you generally want to show stuff from shipped titles.
It's great that you have studios you're interested in, I would highly recommend jumping on artstation and see if you can find the concept artists who worked on them. Save their stuff, try to break it down and figure out what you're lacking to make work to a similar caliber.
So plan is: Go back, work on portfolio for education (that's free!), get said education, work hard on free time, gauge my options afterwards for where I want to base myself and the level Im at. I feel as if I should be as devastated as I was at the beginning of this thread but honestly: with this plan it all feels pretty okay.
Speaking of online courses, is there any recommendation for CGSpectrums courses?
Thank you for the advice, on what path to go in 3D I can't decide on atm, I'd have to do some soul-searching on that front. But I'll heed your advice and work towards getting out of the generalists-lane.
I really admire the artists I've seen who have been able to get work in both like Makkon for example, thus the inspiration to go through with this. If I end up just working in one discipline, that's fine too but I can see myself do both at this stage.
I felt my answer was a bit of guess-work, so I'll sit myself down to really think this through of where I want the work to go towards.
I did jump on artstation and searched around for the artists of the titles I'm interested in. Up until this point I just had a artist and the general work s/he produced, never thought of working towards titles aswell.
@Markmars, Read my post above yours. Both Concept Art and 3D Artist,most likely one weighing heavier than the other.
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I feel a lot more at peace and content with my decision now and got some good advice going forward from everybody. I didn't expect to get all the response, advice and supportive comments with me freaking out and all.
Thank you so much for the help and advice everyone!