The Agony of learning without a mentor
polycounter lvl 6
The last few days were tough, in a way.
My life/work schedules are usually unpredictable, only slightly better than my days as a background actor for TV shows and occasionally movies. And when I have a day off I manage my schedule poorly. I decided to do a project with Modo, but turned out that it's too complicated for a beginner. I fired up Zbrush and used it for a couple of hours. I felt like I was swimming in a swamp, or lost in a zero-gravity environment. Zbrush doesn't behave like I want it to be.
Hard surface modeling is...hard for a beginner. And learning Zbrush takes a tremendous amount of time and mileage. I guess I should just practice from easy tutorials from Pluralsight. (yes, I have had a membership for a while.)
I don't have a clear direction. I did sign up for an Intro to 3D Modeling class at a local community college. And they use Maya, and sometimes Zbrush. My goal is to be learn modeling and texturing with some rudimentary rigging skills to pose the models. And I really want to learn hard surface modeling, since I love mecha and vehicles. I do believe that learning CG is incredibly difficult without mentoring. (and that's why I am taking the intro class.) And I am feeling the hardship. Without a clear direction, you can't plan on a clear educational path. I do have a goal, but I have no idea how to get there.
Since I am supposed to learn modeling with Maya this Fall, should I just concentrate on learning Maya only?
My life/work schedules are usually unpredictable, only slightly better than my days as a background actor for TV shows and occasionally movies. And when I have a day off I manage my schedule poorly. I decided to do a project with Modo, but turned out that it's too complicated for a beginner. I fired up Zbrush and used it for a couple of hours. I felt like I was swimming in a swamp, or lost in a zero-gravity environment. Zbrush doesn't behave like I want it to be.
Hard surface modeling is...hard for a beginner. And learning Zbrush takes a tremendous amount of time and mileage. I guess I should just practice from easy tutorials from Pluralsight. (yes, I have had a membership for a while.)
I don't have a clear direction. I did sign up for an Intro to 3D Modeling class at a local community college. And they use Maya, and sometimes Zbrush. My goal is to be learn modeling and texturing with some rudimentary rigging skills to pose the models. And I really want to learn hard surface modeling, since I love mecha and vehicles. I do believe that learning CG is incredibly difficult without mentoring. (and that's why I am taking the intro class.) And I am feeling the hardship. Without a clear direction, you can't plan on a clear educational path. I do have a goal, but I have no idea how to get there.
Since I am supposed to learn modeling with Maya this Fall, should I just concentrate on learning Maya only?
Replies
don't be a wuss, jump into what you want to do and get better at it, make mistakes, learn from them.
there is no ONE simple way
Follow enough tutorials that you are comfortable with the software and can finish a simple asset. If you fully commit and actually work hard at learning, you can pick up the basics of modeling in a month. If you just doodle around, it will take much longer.
Then work on those dream projects you want to create. Work through those walls and road blocks. You'll be lost, not sure what the best solution is, but once you work through those problems a few times, you'll become faster and better, and be more sure of what you are doing. There's a few big hurdles almost every new 3d artist hits, like UVing and normal maps, but there's plenty of resources online for those types of things. And for 3d, there's a lot of solutions and often no best solution to any given problem or asset. There's no perfect UV layout, at least 4 very different ways of approaching hard surface modeling. You're first few pieces wont be great, but keep looking forwarding knowing that the next one will be better.
If you have questions, feel free to email me.
b.choi117@gmail.com
Been using Modo for the last year and a half, and I started with Maya. Pretty sure most of your problems is going to be a workflow issue or concepts you haven't learned yet.
You're not the only old Asian guy on Polycount.
I suppose I have a soft spot. It's kind of racist.
Most of us, myself included have had almost no mentors beyond working with more experienced people on various jobs, and in that environment even, I was not being actively 'helped' I just watched people that where better than me and made a note to learn what they where doing in my own time.
To expect someone to stop their own progress and put aside large amounts of time to help for little to no reward is just not going to happen the majority of the time unfortunately.
Once again I would really put some effort on building a habit of self learning and relying on yourself. There is a lot of fantastic online content for purchase or even free that you can learn from, using this resource as well as building a group of friends / peers that you can bounce work and ideas off could count for alot.
For personal interaction, you may get a nudge in the right direction now and again by other people, or if you are exceptionally lucky some structured advice and feedback. Anything else would be remarkable. The majority of people on these forums have had little or none of what would be considered a classic mentorship I would guess.
Why not aim at becoming a mechanical designer then ? You'll get to be more creative with the subject you love, and you will have no tool barrier to go up against since all you need is pen and paper.
I don't think it is realistic to run back to a mentor or school every time there is a new development in our little world, learning to teach yourself is key.
and no one should or should have to learn via pluralsite(digitutors), sorry, not sorry lol.
Yeah, I remember learning MAX back in late 90s. Didn't work out well and I got burned out, so I didn't touch the subject for more than I needed. Anyway, today is my precious day off so I am off to study the tutorials from Pluralsight. Just some very basic Maya stuff.
BTW, what's wrong with Pluralsight? Can you guys enlighten me?
P.S. But...but...but...that Zbrush!
You go on artstation, see all the amazing work, and then you are depressed when you see you can't get anything to look even remotely as good. So you loose motivation.
That's why i think, or at least i think it works for me, is to approach things with some sort of plan.
Ok, i want to first learn modelling. So where do i start? Maybe with viewport navigation, assinging materials to objects, moving objects, etc. Ok, so i'll spent some time learning it and getting used to it. Ok, so now i have some idea how to do that. What's next...hm, maybe some basic tools. Lets learn how to make primitives. What kind of modes i have (vertex, edge,.....). Lets spend some time doodling with all this knowledge. Look at few tutorials to get some idea how it can be used.
Basically, focusing on short term goals. Forget artstation, forget all the amazing stuff people do, just focus on your own goals. And when you achieve your short term goal (say, learning extrude tool, in what ways it can be used), or after learning several short term goals like that, try and make small "project", where you put all the knowledge you got, into it.
Zbrush can be a monster, but it's managable.
Check out this channel:
Just go one step at a time. Focus on short termn goals instead of just rushing things, should help a bit at least.
To go against the grain of what everybody else is saying, I'm going to say a mentor will give you valued guidance. Sure you can watch tons of tutorials and get better that way, but a mentor would give great guidance and critique in ways that are pretty difficult to figure our or get on your own. I found a friend by making a post on Craigslist who is a senior artist, and he ripped into what I was doing and gave me a more solid direction to work towards.
As for now, modeling is fun as long as they are boxy models with few smooth edges. I mean I am still struggling with sub-D modeling method. At this point I plan to use the rough models as the basis for a finalized 2D drawing. I can draw over the rough meshes and things. That would be fun and great, as long as I get the hang of it.
The thing I keep forgetting is that I am not advanced enough to do some casual, speed modeling. So I need to plan ahead thoroughly. I get another day off on Friday and will spend the whole day working on the basic forms of a mech I plan to design. Then I will fire up Modo and block out the basic shapes. Come to think of it, that might be a good approach to build up the mileage on modeling stuff.
P.S. Right now I am watching the Intro to Maya 2017 videos. I think the interface in Maya is a bit clunkier than Modo, but I think I can get used to it.
@Ashervisalis Yes, I agree. A while ago I asked a related question on Quora and they really emphasized the importance of a mentor.
@Zocky You are right. I need to crawl before walk.
Have you instead of focusing on getting a handle on UI, or primitives, endeavored to just make a prop to completion?
HOWEVER.... you need to be wary of some videos on there, because I've been in a situation recently where I was following a series on there that turned out to be full of wrong information. Whatever you decide to do to learn these tools make sure you check out the author of the tutorials. Make sure they've worked in the industry.... find their portfolio etc.
You should. Forces you to make something production worthy AND learn your software. Tools are generally easier to learn than making good art.
This is how it should be done:
http://www.nathanspoor.com/NS_GE_nerdrum.html
Time passed in David’s life with an equal intensity, and with ample reassurance that his path was true. After having moved to Los Angeles to expand his understanding of a more worldly concept of painting, he heard something that pricked every ear of his interest: Odd was taking applications for new apprentices. Any other individual might have discounted it as a lofty rumor, but David was sure that it was the call. The very moment that he heard about this window of opportunity, he was in the actual discourse of investing some positive reinforcement into a fellow artist friend about getting back into painting. This was not irony. This was surely a sign.
David quickly and assuredly set forth to make contact with his distant mentor, sending a wonderful letter along with several pictures of his figurative works to Odd via Forum Gallery. What he received in return would further confirm those intuitions of his artistic visions. There in his stolidly ecstatic hands was a letter from Odd, inviting him to apprentice for a month in the twilight wonderland of an island known as Iceland.
And off he went.
To prepare for the trip, he took in supplies what one would bring for about a month’s stay. Upon arriving at Odd Nerdrum’s Reykjavik studio, David’s duties would mostly consist of figurative modeling, preparing the linen for Odd’s works, and various other studio duties. With the month of August passing quickly and productively, and David’s exhuberance for the situation undwindled against the chilling climate, Odd asked him to stay on through the winter months. David immediately accepted and found some thicker stock clothing in a prop closet to battle the persistent lunar bite and was set for the duration.
Winter months outside of Reykjavik are the treeless desolate sort of scene most akin to night-times on the moon. Odd warmed David up to this reality with the somewhat humorous aphorism, “You have to go into a dark cave to look a small dark flame.” David relates that the actual painting instruction he received from Odd was more of a living walk of discovery than any actual outlining of facts or textbook wisdoms. “If one is eager to absorb,” Molesky muses, “the education comes from watching him paint and listening to his endless cultural anecdotes. Odd usually talks about the problems with Norwegian politics or the Contemporary Art world.” To date Odd has made use of his gift for storytelling by fashioning several of these tales into a forthcoming art book entitled Studio Talk (due out sometime in 2008).
To make a GOOD Transformer (because let's face reality, most fan made models look like crap), takes a lot of work, a good bit of design knowledge and some technical expertise that goes beyond just modeling (some decent understanding of how mechanical parts work, the ability to construct a simple and reusable rig, and good understanding of materials, etc. are needed).
I think that my biggest problem is that I've been shooting well beyond my skillset to the point where it feels like a hopeless uphill battle. Part of this is not because I'm a horrible modeler, but because I tried to go too advanced too soon, got stuck, and burned out.
Instead, I think it's very good advice to heed what some of the other members on this forum have said: start off simple, because even the most boring and mundane subject will be a challenge to do well.
The traditional poly-Subd workflow with control loops is a pain to learn and you will cut your teeth trying to master it since you wind up breaking all kinds of rules like using ngons and tris in your low poly cage (remember it all gets quadrangulated when you freeze the Subdivision level, so don't worry about the ngons and tris). However, you might consider using edge-weighting in PSubs (the only downside is that you can't export out of MODO to other packages and have the weighting preserved, though I thought Maya was cool with it?)
Great advice. Thank you.
Come to think of it, I think I should model simple stuff for a while, to increase the skills and mileage. But...life often interfere with the plans. I might get cast as a recurring background actor with SAG rate for a drama series starring Jeremy Piven, starting from next week.
If I don't get picked up, at least I can spend my time doodling with polygons. If I get picked up...hmm. I might be able to have a couple of days off per week.
So I'm going too buck the trend here recommending you try tackling a complex subject, for instance that mech you're thinking about. Because it honestly seems to me you are not going at this completely cold as a novice. Obviously knowing your app of choice is crucial prior too attempting an object this challenging however Digital Tutors, despite earlier opinion to the contrary is actually in the main a pro authored tutorial library catering to those artists of beginner/intermediate skill level.
That being said, it shouldn't be too tedious an exercise teaching yourself working with another ADSK program, as I understand you've previous Max experience. Anyway if the intent is to extend beyond the comfort zone, then IMHO jumping in head first will definitly yield positive results in terms of overall progression alone.
Cheers.
...If you are just starting out like me their teachings can become too dogmatic. Most of the tuts I watch are done by JM and he is very meticulous, but indeed dogmatic and rigid in a way. But the flipside is that he does teach you how to use the tool, from the rock bottom phase.
Someone gave me this advice: Learn Zbrush using only limited set of tools. Standard, Move, HPolish, Remesher, and such. And yes, he makes perfect sense because learning too many tools at the beginning will confuse you even more.
Well, at least I am supposed to work 2~3 days a week, while I am not working at my family retail business. But this somewhat screwed my plan to study modeling and whatnot. The pay is OK, base rate is $164 per 8 hours, and the shooting lasts normally 12~14 hours a day, not counting lunch hours. Well, at least there's a lot of downtime so I can take my tablet/laptop to watch some tutorials and push some polygons.
The upside is, I can force myself to concentrate on Modo instead of wobbling between Maya and Modo.
Agony is getting kicked cleanly in the bollocks, from behind, with your legs shoulder width apart. Learning CG should be exciting. A passion. Something that you completely lose track of time whilst doing.
Just be thankful that there are a staggering amount of resources available today. To echo some of the other 'old-timers' here, learning back in the day for me involved a 3dsmax official docs book (yes, the paper ones) as thick as a doorstep, a handful of online tutorials that I printed out to spite my 3k a second connection, and later, dvds that a postman hand delivered......
So please, spare us the agony and just get on with the learning.
OP - if you're planning to hook up with Modo, then I'd strongly recommend learning from a Master by looking into Tor Frick's "Snerfer" work utilising it on Gumroad and Steam.
Plus aside from doing yourself a massive favour but most importantly progressing helluva lot faster as you would otherwise if sourcing instructional material elsewhere...IMHO.
https://gumroad.com/snefer#
https://steamcommunity.com/app/401090/discussions/1/494632768635378418/
Although...what do I know anyway you've got it sussed, right!
and B ) if you can find some way to bring a decent amount of value to that mentor in order to help balance the relationship. This can come from straight up paying for their time, doing free work for them etc, but if you look at the situation as "how can i give value to this person" instead of "how can this person help me" you will get much better results.