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3ds Max vs. Maya nowadays and in the future

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Blade113 polycounter lvl 8

Hey guys!

I've been using Blender for about 2,5 years now, basically from about my age of 12. 3D art catched my interest and I decided few years later I want to do it as a job. I picked a high school for 3D art.

blah blah, history aside, I'm trying to learn an industry standart software now. I was browsing through few studios. And since I want to do modeling (and I'm bad at creating characters :<), most of Environment artist positions had 3ds Max in requirements.. just Max, not Maya or Modo.. that kinda surprised me..

That encouraged me into finally starting learning Max, so I downloaded a student version. The first experience was horrible, and nothing is like in Blender >:C That brings me to another question.. Why is interface so unfriendly? It's the worst of all 3D applications in my opinion.

So I went through few forums again, and found out that I'm actually not the only one who doesn't like Max's first impressions. Some people even said that Max is kinda dying and there's no point learning it.

I thought Maya's mostly used for animation and Max has modeling power, but seeing those Maya updates and watching Max staying behind (imo)...

Well, guys, what do you think? Do you recommend me learning Max even tho it seems Autodesk likes Maya more? I mean, I'm aware I'll spend sooo much time on it and it might all come for nothing.

I know you guys can't predict the future, I'm just asking for your opinion.

btw. I personaly like Modo most for it's modeling tools, but it seems not many studios share my opinion :D

Thanks for your time and answers!

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  • Blade113
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    Blade113 polycounter lvl 8
    Shinigami said:

    you re golden with whatever program as long as you can do the same quality others can do with max modo or whatever with blender. You forget that its the final product what actually matters. Programs are just tools.

    hmm, I agree on that.. I don't quite understand why some of the studios force you into their software.. like, "you have to use Maya/Max (whatever) only, otherwise you can't work here"

    thanks for the help, tho.. I'll spend some time in Max thanks to you :)

  • Jonas Ronnegard
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    Jonas Ronnegard polycount sponsor
    Well it won't really matter too much if you learn either maya or max, but I'm guessing that some studios will be a bit scared if they see you only have used Blender, that label might go away by the time you start working though, but yeah usually they only look at your work and usually most artist gets used to maya or max quite fast if they know one of them.

    one reason that you can't use your preferred software at some studios is that they use in house scripts and tools etc, and if you need help it's easier if you use the same software as everyone else. Also if you are in a team of people doing the same kind of work, like a big environment team it might be preferable to have the same workflow and tools. easier to get away with using modo etc if you are a weapon team of 1 or 2 people.
  • MmAaXx
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    MmAaXx polycounter lvl 10
    do you want to be a modeler? if yes, don't waste your time with other softwares, even if  "standard" 
    if you find your self confortable stay stick on blender, like I do, I never had any problem with that.
    Ofcourse some times you have to provide maya files or 3dsmax files, but in that case I simply export an obj or fbx and every thing goes fine.

    If you want to learn other softwares, well, spernd time on maya, is the real industry standard.

    cheers.
  • Blade113
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    Blade113 polycounter lvl 8
    Well it won't really matter too much if you learn either maya or max, but I'm guessing that some studios will be a bit scared if they see you only have used Blender, that label might go away by the time you start working though, but yeah usually they only look at your work and usually most artist gets used to maya or max quite fast if they know one of them.

    one reason that you can't use your preferred software at some studios is that they use in house scripts and tools etc, and if you need help it's easier if you use the same software as everyone else. Also if you are in a team of people doing the same kind of work, like a big environment team it might be preferable to have the same workflow and tools. easier to get away with using modo etc if you are a weapon team of 1 or 2 people.
    very helpful, thanks :)
  • lefix
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    lefix polycounter lvl 11
    Max is not dying. People have been saying this for a decade and it's still not happening.

    My personal impression is that traditionally Maya was dominant in film, whereas Max was dominant in Games (and many other fields). And nowadays they're both heavily used. At the same time studios seem a bit more open to what software their artists use as exchanging files has become easier while engines are also supporting more file formats.
  • Blade113
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    Blade113 polycounter lvl 8
    lefix said:
    Max is not dying. People have been saying this for a decade and it's still not happening.

    It's like calling the apocalypse over and over xd

    Ok, thanks for the answer.

  • Ex-Ray
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    Ex-Ray polycounter lvl 12
    As a general rule, I would advise to develop a healthy attitude to learning new software as you'll end up doing it quite a bit in the industry anyway. Besides the modelling package you might have to learn a new game engine, new texturing software, another source control prog, the company proprietary engine or tools.

    If you have the time and resources to learn it now, then learn it. Otherwise concentrate on your art, bearing in mind you might have to learn one of the main packages on the job in the future.
  • sziada
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    sziada polycounter lvl 11
    I remember trying to learn Blender and had no luck, 3DS Max was hard when I started learning at first but I just kept trying and trying until I could make a model. To be honest with 3D software packages I really believe its about persistence and a willingness to learn. If I could give you any advice, fork out a buck or so and jump on digital tutors as they are really great if you are trying to pick up a new software package.
  • Blade113
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    Blade113 polycounter lvl 8
    sziada said:
    I remember trying to learn Blender and had no luck, 3DS Max was hard when I started learning at first but I just kept trying and trying until I could make a model. To be honest with 3D software packages I really believe its about persistence and a willingness to learn. If I could give you any advice, fork out a buck or so and jump on digital tutors as they are really great if you are trying to pick up a new software package.

    You're right, thanks.
  • Blade113
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    Blade113 polycounter lvl 8
    Ex-Ray said:
    As a general rule, I would advise to develop a healthy attitude to learning new software as you'll end up doing it quite a bit in the industry anyway. Besides the modelling package you might have to learn a new game engine, new texturing software, another source control prog, the company proprietary engine or tools.

    If you have the time and resources to learn it now, then learn it. Otherwise concentrate on your art, bearing in mind you might have to learn one of the main packages on the job in the future.

    I see, thanks for the answer.
  • kohg
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    kohg polycounter lvl 8
    I first started as a blender user, i then took a 3d course and learned how to use Max, at the time, 2014, i found Max much easier and more powerful tool than blender, and i've never looked back and been a max user since.
  • Blade113
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    Blade113 polycounter lvl 8
    kohg said:
    I first started as a blender user, i then took a 3d course and learned how to use Max, at the time, 2014, i found Max much easier and more powerful tool than blender, and i've never looked back and been a max user since.

    I hope I'll find Max easy to use soon too :D
  • Blade113
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    Blade113 polycounter lvl 8
    If you got a decent PC with Nvidia GPU, then Modo can be an excellent weapon of choice for any 3D artist. I still think that Modo offers better modeling, retopo, UVing, baking, rendering an environment creation tools than 3DS Max for game art (including concept art, level design and 3D modeling). I would just call Modo a big time saver. Artists can also use C++, Python (built-in scripting editor) and record Macros to bend it to their needs. And in the long run, I'd rather invest my money in The Foundry than Autodesk.

    More importantly, the future of Modo is much brighter than 3DS Max. The Modo 10 series speaks for itself. It's long term partnership, the same one I got with Pixologic (Zbrush) and Allegorithmic (Substance Designer/Painter). They do profoundly care about artists, they listen to us and they work hard to raise the bar every single day; maximum effort.

    Just don't be short-sighted. 3DS Max and Maya aren't the only options for professional work out there. Many artists these days are instead using Modo, Blender or have moved most of their 3D modeling workflow to Zbrush.





    Ok, thanks for the answer :)
  • beefaroni
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    beefaroni sublime tool
    Use whatever you're comfortable with to create awesome artwork + a great portfolio. Having a bunch of average artwork and knowing 100 modelling packages won't help you.

    I literally had 0 experience with 3ds Max before my first job at Hi-Rez. You know what I did a month before I started? I learned enough 3ds Max to equal my skill with Maya and never had a problem.

    I think people get too caught up with pleasing certain studios with modelling packages. If your work is badass I don't think they're going to be like "Oh, he only uses so-and-so package, definitely can't hire him. We should hire the guy who knows all these packages and has a average folio".

    At the end of the day you're just modelling in the package. I've said this before. It's not rigging/animation/scripting/lighting/rendering. It's just modelling. Once you're proficient in making awesome stuff in blender it shouldn't be too hard to apply those fundamentals to other software. 

    In my experience, as long as you show a willingness in your phone / on-site interview to adopt to the packages that the studio requires you're fine. 
  • Blade113
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    Blade113 polycounter lvl 8
    Shinigami said:
    Blade113 said:
    If you got a decent PC with Nvidia GPU, then Modo can be an excellent weapon of choice for any 3D artist. I still think that Modo offers better modeling, retopo, UVing, baking, rendering an environment creation tools than 3DS Max for game art (including concept art, level design and 3D modeling). I would just call Modo a big time saver. Artists can also use C++, Python (built-in scripting editor) and record Macros to bend it to their needs. And in the long run, I'd rather invest my money in The Foundry than Autodesk.

    More importantly, the future of Modo is much brighter than 3DS Max. The Modo 10 series speaks for itself. It's long term partnership, the same one I got with Pixologic (Zbrush) and Allegorithmic (Substance Designer/Painter). They do profoundly care about artists, they listen to us and they work hard to raise the bar every single day; maximum effort.

    Just don't be short-sighted. 3DS Max and Maya aren't the only options for professional work out there. Many artists these days are instead using Modo, Blender or have moved most of their 3D modeling workflow to Zbrush.





    Ok, thanks for the answer :)
    my advice is: dont pick a school for 3d art. Just dont. I know some people who have graduated and their work isnt the highest quality but the price is very high. Study something for a plan B and improve your 3d at the same time. Once you are confident shift to 3d entirely. You re much better learning 3d at home than school


    too late :D I already did xd

    but it's not just 3d art, it's for an art overall (multimedia), so I guess it can give me valuable experience :)

  • Blade113
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    Blade113 polycounter lvl 8
    beefaroni said:
    Use whatever you're comfortable with to create awesome artwork + a great portfolio. Having a bunch of average artwork and knowing 100 modelling packages won't help you.

    I literally had 0 experience with 3ds Max before my first job at Hi-Rez. You know what I did a month before I started? I learned enough 3ds Max to equal my skill with Maya and never had a problem.

    I think people get too caught up with pleasing certain studios with modelling packages. If your work is badass I don't think they're going to be like "Oh, he only uses so-and-so package, definitely can't hire him. We should hire the guy who knows all these packages and has a average folio".

    At the end of the day you're just modelling in the package. I've said this before. It's not rigging/animation/scripting/lighting/rendering. It's just modelling. Once you're proficient in making awesome stuff in blender it shouldn't be too hard to apply those fundamentals to other software. 

    In my experience, as long as you show a willingness in your phone / on-site interview to adopt to the packages that the studio requires you're fine. 


    you work/ed at Hi-Rez? wow, I like their games, they have innvovative ideas :) , respect for you

    also thanks for the answer

  • artquest
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    artquest polycounter lvl 13
    beefaroni said:
    Use whatever you're comfortable with to create awesome artwork + a great portfolio. Having a bunch of average artwork and knowing 100 modelling packages won't help you.

    I literally had 0 experience with 3ds Max before my first job at Hi-Rez. You know what I did a month before I started? I learned enough 3ds Max to equal my skill with Maya and never had a problem.

    I think people get too caught up with pleasing certain studios with modelling packages. If your work is badass I don't think they're going to be like "Oh, he only uses so-and-so package, definitely can't hire him. We should hire the guy who knows all these packages and has a average folio".

    At the end of the day you're just modelling in the package. I've said this before. It's not rigging/animation/scripting/lighting/rendering. It's just modelling. Once you're proficient in making awesome stuff in blender it shouldn't be too hard to apply those fundamentals to other software. 

    In my experience, as long as you show a willingness in your phone / on-site interview to adopt to the packages that the studio requires you're fine. 
    +1 on this. I've never used 3ds max in a studio environment before starting at Blur. If they like your work it wont be a problem. That being said... It's important to realize that 3ds max has a product direction more focused on industrial design/architecture and architectural rendering. Yes it has some great features that have made it a great choice for games in the past. But every year I see more features added for design and the modifier system was cool 5 years ago but if you want a real node based modeling software go check out Houdini's latest update.

    http://www.sidefx.com/news/sidefx-releases-houdini-155/

    Companies besides autodesk are working hard to move the industry forward in modeling tools. Autodesk can't move this quick because they're too big. It doesn't make sense for them to dump resources into revolutionizing modeling because all the major vfx and game studios will still buy their software. So they have to invest in big systems like bi frost and MASH to sell more licenses of maya and things like tighter integration with architectural software for 3ds max. (max 2017 has a plug-in that lets you test windflow and structural integrity of your building based on windspeed and other factors  !)
  • spacefrog
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    spacefrog polycounter lvl 14
    artquest said:
    (max 2017 has a plug-in that lets you test windflow and structural integrity of your building based on windspeed and other factors  !)
    That would be news to me. Max 2017 only received an importer for simulation data ( CFD ), nothing more. In general, 3ds Max's development direction is not really steering towards Archviz or CAD nowadays. In fact, it's doing less so than some years ago. Currently it plays catch up with some of the great Maya additions of the recent years, that's true though...

  • ExcessiveZero
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    ExcessiveZero polycounter lvl 6
    I say with 100% confidence Modo is the future it is just taking people to get up to speed with it, Modo made me excited about 3D again after all these years, Max does feel like it is in stagnation, Maya is alright but modo feels definitively like the future.

    Last month I finally made the decision that where possible all my work would be done in Modo now, I can't think of a thing except maybe as a dedicated sculpting app it doesn't do better then every other application out there, I would even say its 3d texture painting is entirely on par with mudbox.
  • Blade113
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    Blade113 polycounter lvl 8

    yea, I'm waiting for the Steam sale on Modo Indie and I might grab it there...

  • Mark Dygert
    Modo is great for modeling. Then I lean toward 3dsmax then maybe Maya.

    For animation it's the reverse. Modo still has quite a ways to go for animation but it's made a lot of great leaps in the last few releases. I hope they continue to focus on animation tools and not just catch up but leap frog ahead of the competition and do to animation what they've done for modeling.

    3dsmax isn't going anywhere, way too many people use it, too many studios have built entire pipelines around it and anyone who thinks its dying, is probably just hoping it dies because they are frustrated due to unfamiliarity with it, heh.  With certain jobs early in the pipeline like modeling static props and what not, the pipeline is pretty open and almost all software "could be" accommodated.

    Once you get deeper into the pipeline, like others have said, custom tools are created and workflows established that almost everyone needs to be on the same software. But still it's best if all of the working files are from the same program, that way it's easier to track down problems and maintain a cohesive look. If the studio is baking normal maps 7 different ways it makes it hard to track down issues and fix them, which gets even more of a pain if you have to find someone who knows a particular program to troubleshoot it. They might not be there or they might not be available which just adds to the problem and makes it a headache for someone else to fix.

    As for Blender, it's ok. I come from 3dsmax and Maya so I've kind of always butted heads with Blender's UI and workflow, whenever I try to use it. It seems like everything takes a few more clicks or has just a few more layers of bureaucracy and friction. Maybe that's because I haven't gotten into customizing it but most of the time when I look to see if someone has innovated a faster way I run into "that's just how you do it in blender". Seriously there are faster ways, the blender community just doesn't know about them or is very defensive and doesn't push to make things better like they should.

    Blender has made some nice advancements, but I don't think a studio using Maya or Max will want to invest time in training someone who has only used Blender, especially if they aren't very open to leaning 3dsmax or maya.

    Maya and Max are similar enough that most people can cross over with minimal downtime. With Blender there seems to be more of a hurdle and the persons art would have to be so amazing to make that leap worthwhile. Which is tough when there are probably 10-20 well qualified candidates that already know the studios package of choice, ready to hit the ground running, adding to work being done instead of draining resources as they get up to speed. If they drag their feet and complain the whole time it can be a real moral killer for people who have to train them.
  • Blade113
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    Blade113 polycounter lvl 8
    Modo is great for modeling. Then I lean toward 3dsmax then maybe Maya.

    For animation it's the reverse. Modo still has quite a ways to go for animation but it's made a lot of great leaps in the last few releases. I hope they continue to focus on animation tools and not just catch up but leap frog ahead of the competition and do to animation what they've done for modeling.

    3dsmax isn't going anywhere, way too many people use it, too many studios have built entire pipelines around it and anyone who thinks its dying, is probably just hoping it dies because they are frustrated due to unfamiliarity with it, heh.  With certain jobs early in the pipeline like modeling static props and what not, the pipeline is pretty open and almost all software "could be" accommodated.

    Once you get deeper into the pipeline, like others have said, custom tools are created and workflows established that almost everyone needs to be on the same software. But still it's best if all of the working files are from the same program, that way it's easier to track down problems and maintain a cohesive look. If the studio is baking normal maps 7 different ways it makes it hard to track down issues and fix them, which gets even more of a pain if you have to find someone who knows a particular program to troubleshoot it. They might not be there or they might not be available which just adds to the problem and makes it a headache for someone else to fix.

    As for Blender, it's ok. I come from 3dsmax and Maya so I've kind of always butted heads with Blender's UI and workflow, whenever I try to use it. It seems like everything takes a few more clicks or has just a few more layers of bureaucracy and friction. Maybe that's because I haven't gotten into customizing it but most of the time when I look to see if someone has innovated a faster way I run into "that's just how you do it in blender". Seriously there are faster ways, the blender community just doesn't know about them or is very defensive and doesn't push to make things better like they should.

    Blender has made some nice advancements, but I don't think a studio using Maya or Max will want to invest time in training someone who has only used Blender, especially if they aren't very open to leaning 3dsmax or maya.

    Maya and Max are similar enough that most people can cross over with minimal downtime. With Blender there seems to be more of a hurdle and the persons art would have to be so amazing to make that leap worthwhile. Which is tough when there are probably 10-20 well qualified candidates that already know the studios package of choice, ready to hit the ground running, adding to work being done instead of draining resources as they get up to speed. If they drag their feet and complain the whole time it can be a real moral killer for people who have to train them.

    I got your point, thanks for the answer :)
  • Blade113
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    Blade113 polycounter lvl 8
    Arkaria said:
    Interesting that so many people here seem to love Modo. I've never used it, I'm a Maya/Zbrush person but since everyone seems to think its so awesome for game art I may have to try it out

    Well, you should definitely give it a try, it has 30-days trial and Foundry is even considering giving a non-commercial version for free now.
    https://www.thefoundry.co.uk/products/modo/
  • MagicSugar
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    MagicSugar polycounter lvl 10
    Takes a lot of personal time investment to be good at any software let alone modelling, animating, texturing.

    If you're a total beginner and want a studio job, i recommend learning Max, Zbrush exclusively.  You cant rely on Human Resources people from big studios to know what's best in software other than brand recognition.   

    You should only branch out to Modo if you already have work experience with Max or Maya and want a non-rental secondary tool for the indie or freelance studio.  Or, you're rich anyway and can buy or rent whatever software that suits your fancy.

    Maya, if you want to specialize as an animator or rigger.  Even if you're just good animating in Maya you should still have a good chance getting hired at an exclusive Max studio.

    Smartest decision?  Blender.  You can have a decent portfolio with it for either studio work applications or indie gigs, especially when you use add ons like hardops and boxcutter ($15 each on gumroad),  I don't think it's hard to transition to either max or maya coming from Blender.

    I'm only exclusive on Modo since I've already invested a lot on using it for freelance work and Blender wasn't good yet when I was searching for a relatively cheap non-Autodesk tool.
  • MagicSugar
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    MagicSugar polycounter lvl 10
    If you're a total beginner and want a studio job, i recommend learning Max, Zbrush exclusively.  You cant rely on Human Resources people from big studios to know what's best in software other than brand recognition.   
    Unfortunately, that's what most artists have been doing for over 10 years and look at where we are at. Game studios don't dictate what tools we should use, we do. The mindset you suggest is toxic and is why it took so much time for Substance Designer/Painter to get known and recognized. Many studios are still using Photoshop instead of Substance as if they were stuck in the pas 10 years ago. That toxic mindset is what is holding back the industry and preventing greater tech or software devs to thrive. It is still holding back Substance. It is also holding back Modo.
    LOL, don't shoot the messenger.  Read the job ads to disabuse yourself of a lost cause.  Modo use is creeping but Autodesk is gamedev ingrained (for 3 long decades and counting).
  • lurked
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    lurked polycounter lvl 10
    If you're a total beginner and want a studio job, i recommend learning Max, Zbrush exclusively.  You cant rely on Human Resources people from big studios to know what's best in software other than brand recognition.   
    Unfortunately, that's what most artists have been doing for over 10 years and look at where we are at. Game studios don't dictate what tools we should use, we do. The mindset you suggest is toxic and is why it took so much time for Substance Designer/Painter to get known and recognized. Many studios are still using Photoshop instead of Substance as if they were stuck in the pas 10 years ago. That toxic mindset is what is holding back the industry and preventing greater tech or software devs to thrive. It is still holding back Substance. It is also holding back Modo. And when you master a new app such as Substance or Modo, that makes you valuable; you are the future and a time saver.

  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm interpolator
    another issue with picking up Modo at scale -> money. When it was just Max + ZB + PS, there were 3 licenses in the mix and maybe some helpers. That was the situation in 2007. Now fast forward to today: We added Designer, Painter. Then Modo. Then some MD licenses, some Houdini licenses. Quixel and 3D Coat and Agisoft too. And yet, we still cannot really throw out any package to make space and bring costs down again. The costs just pile up. As long as it's like that studios are careful how to spend their money.

    Modo is a great tool, but many of it's functions are already be covered by Max and Maya. Therefore it's a lower priority than investing on real game-changer tools, like MD (which beats the shit out of nCloth), Substance or even Houdini. That's how buying decisions made - you look what your current tools cover and what not. Then you add follow-up costs: training, adapting existing infrastructure, initial loss of productivity due to a new tool's learning curve.
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 11

    lurked said:
    You mentioned that companies adopted Substance at a rapid pace, but I must strongly disagree and mainly because I've been part of those who have been pushing for it and saw it grow. Here in Montreal, Substance only started to rise at the end of 2014. Before that, very few artists were even aware of its existence. We weren't taught Substance when I studied 3D modeling back then in 2014, but with networking we've managed to make a push and after I graduated the next groups of students started to learn substance and Substance started to tested in some game studios such as Ubisoft and Warner Bros.  Also one of the reason why studios started to take a look at it was because they were finishing a couple of projects and add time to investigate. But we are only talking about few artists. We've learned recently that Ubisoft used Substance on the Rainbow Six series, which his great, but it's unclear how many artists used it, how many other projects use it or if Substance is used at any other Ubisoft studio. But I do know that other big Ubisoft studios are not using it and same for other game companies. Substance might have been used on several AAA games and/or by half the AAA studios, but let's face it... it's just getting started. I'm really glad for Allegorithmic that things are going so well, they totally deserve it.

    When it comes to job descriptions and 3D artists positions, it depends. A lot of job descriptions require 3DS Max or Maya or 3DS Max + Maya and sometimes they require the artist to be proficient in an equivalent software (ex: Modo). We do have artists at some game studios who are using Modo instead of 3DS Max. And I'm aware that there is at least one studio in Montreal that is Modo-centric for modeling, but I think it has to do with the film industry. But if someone is looking for a job in Montreal, it would be wise to be proficient in 3DS Max, that's for sure. But if you prefer to use Modo, in most cases I think that really shouldn't be an issue either.
    Just because they aren't advertising that they are using it doesn't mean that they are not.  I mean how many studios advertise using xnormal?
  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm interpolator
    But I would add that most of the artists who do use Modo in 3DS Max centric environments use their own personal license, so the game studio doesn't have to pay for extra licenses and The Foundry is fine with that as well. An
    This is true, but it's not a good starting point for studio wide adoption. Studio wide adoption means integration with pipelines, support with tools, plugins and shaders, day-to-day support options by IT and TA team [1], training for advanced features [2]. This is where studio wide savings and efficiency gains kick in - this is something most studios have established for their existing Maya / Max installations. This can easily outweigh gains by a few individual artists using an "out of the ordinary" software. The more homogeneous the environment [3], the easier you can pull all this off.

    Obviously, you can't just tell your artists: "You all buy modo and pay it out of your own pocket!". Neither can you tell them "those of you who don't have it - we will buy it for you! Those who already paid it yourself - sorry!". So eventually your studio will have to buy licenses for everyone unless you want to piss some people off.

    So the license question is important. My company has lone Modo users, but until it is feasible to roll mode out to more people, they're on their own. And they will still need an extra license of Max or Maya for final exports. So for us as studio there's very little we win - a possible productivity gain of a a small handful of artists (but then again, they could just be as slow in Modo as in any other software / there are no numbers if they are really faster because with different assets it's just hard to measure).

    Introducing new tools on an artist level is fairly easy, but once you go studio wide, things become more complicated.

    [1] Because we assume we will have newcomers/juniors joining the company, or new hires who "grew up" with a different SW. and of course there are always some technical problems to solve.
    [2] Because not everyone has time or inclination to learn by themselves.
    [3] I work for an outsourcer - we use whatever software our client wants us to use. We got a dozen of high end packages and 3 to 4 different Maya  and Max versions in production. A standardized and homogenous environment is something you really, really, really want in production to make it all smooth and easy. The fewer packages, the better. Especially if you can remove interoperability problems (e.g. how do I get my stuff from application X to application Y easily without losing my construction history and all the finely tweaked settings? How can I pass my asset down the pipe to users who use application Z instead?)

  • Jonas Ronnegard
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    Jonas Ronnegard polycount sponsor
    Usually Japan is really slow in adopting new tech and software, but in regards to substance designer and painter, all of my latest in house jobs have used substance, so have a hard time seeing western companies not using it.
  • Chimp
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    Chimp interpolator
    Blade113 said:

     I don't quite understand why some of the studios force you into their software.. like, "you have to use Maya/Max (whatever) only, otherwise you can't work here"

    Because engines are often built around 3d packages with custom tools to link from engine to package from simply things like custom exporters that prepare assets for the game to live link stuff. It's useful having everyone being able to help everyone too. If you use Blender in your spare time and you absolutely love a tool and the whole team want it, the studio may well write a version of their own for the package they want to use, for you.

  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm interpolator
    Chimp said:
    Blade113 said:

     I don't quite understand why some of the studios force you into their software.. like, "you have to use Maya/Max (whatever) only, otherwise you can't work here"

    Because engines are often built around 3d packages with custom tools to link from engine to package from simply things like custom exporters that prepare assets for the game to live link stuff. It's useful having everyone being able to help everyone too. If you use Blender in your spare time and you absolutely love a tool and the whole team want it, the studio may well write a version of their own for the package they want to use, for you.

    this.
    * Support from IT & TA. Knowing every package out there deeply and offering top notch support isn't feasible. Most people prefer their TAs having deep knowledge - it's easier if we focus on a few packages.
    * Training. The more packages, the more expensive it gets to buy training materials. When everyone uses different packages it is not possible any more to effectively share knowledge and to optimize workflows across the board.
    * Integration. With asset management, automation (baking, QA, Houdini), export / import to engine. It takes time to develop and support this. The fewer packages involved, the better.
    * Tools. If we know 30 Max users benefit from a tool it's something different than developing a tool for the lone Modo or Blender user.
    * Purchase: we get better conditions when we buy software in bulk and when we buy a certain number of seats.
    * Interoperability: We select software on the basis how well we can make it work together. The more packages in the mix, the more difficult it gets.
    * Division of work: multiple artists and teams may share, re-use and work on the same assets. This is much easier if everyone uses the same software and data formats.

    As a result we want to standardize and limit the use of software packages. We have to find a compromise that works best for the artists, but also for the people who support them. Hence we tell you what we want you to use. And when we introduce new tools, we have to consider all these issues as well. Hence adaption can sometimes be slower on a studio level than on an individual level.

    Also, we want to prevent you from blaming us if we cannot support your strange exotic package, for the reasons mentioned above.
  • thomasp
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    thomasp hero character
    Blade113 said:

    Hey guys!

    I've been using Blender for about 2,5 years now, basically from about my age of 12. 3D art catched my interest and I decided few years later I want to do it as a job. I picked a high school for 3D art.

    blah blah, history aside, I'm trying to learn an industry standart software now. I was browsing through few studios.


    honestly, i do not think that it matters at all for you right now. you're probably about 8-10 years away from even entering the field proper (!). as you've had plenty of evidence in this thread already: the industry standards are just a compromise one-size-fits-all solution and not necessarily the 'better' choice. and by the time all this becomes relevant for you, what is now the preferred software may well be just a footnote of cg history.

    just pick something that is fun to play and don't narrow yourself down too much for some future job just yet.

  • Blade113
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    Blade113 polycounter lvl 8
    thomasp said:
    Blade113 said:

    Hey guys!

    I've been using Blender for about 2,5 years now, basically from about my age of 12. 3D art catched my interest and I decided few years later I want to do it as a job. I picked a high school for 3D art.

    blah blah, history aside, I'm trying to learn an industry standart software now. I was browsing through few studios.


    honestly, i do not think that it matters at all for you right now. you're probably about 8-10 years away from even entering the field proper (!). as you've had plenty of evidence in this thread already: the industry standards are just a compromise one-size-fits-all solution and not necessarily the 'better' choice. and by the time all this becomes relevant for you, what is now the preferred software may well be just a footnote of cg history.

    just pick something that is fun to play and don't narrow yourself down too much for some future job just yet.


    yea, that's probably a good point..

    not thinking too much about the future as 3d industry tends too change very fast..

  • PolyHertz
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    PolyHertz polycount lvl 666
    Other than Zbrush, it didn't really change all that much in 15 years.
    15 years ago was the PS2 generation. A LOT has changed since then.
  • avenali312
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    avenali312 polycounter lvl 8
    I'll agree with a lot of the people above and say that I'm finding a lot of places being really flexible these days. A company I talked to recently just buys the Autodesk Suite and lets you use whatever is in the suite to get the job done.

    I still recommend at least looking into other software though. Being able to learn and problem solve new software is a skill in itself. Jumping around software, at least periodically, can help you learn how to learn new software. I hope that makes sense haha.
  • PixelMasher
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    PixelMasher veteran polycounter
    having the fact you are comfortable in either max or maya is going to go a long way in getting you past a typical HR door keeper if you are cold applying. Those are usually the people going through a checklist and filtering people before your work even reaches a lead or AD. Personally I would limit anything that I could see as a disadvantage, especially for new people looking to get into the industry. 

    And to be honest, with the free learning licences of max and maya available to anyone for non commercial use, and the tons of useful gnomon/digital tutors/gumroads on how to use those programs availaible for 5-50 dollars, there isn't really an excuse to be familiar with one of them. being able to hit the ground running is a valuable asset to any company. compare your skillset to the competition in your area of interest and improve where lacking.
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    If the addition of a normal map and PBR texturing is ''a lot has changed'', then yes a lot has changed. Otherwise, it's pretty much the same. (GTA screenshots)

    Well ... on the game design and animation front, I would agree that not much has changed as the GTAs from back then are quite mechanically similar to the GTAs of today. But from the perspective of character artists (and modelers in general), we're talking moving from spending a mere few days on a full hero character model + textures, to ... about a month worth of man hours. The workload increase has been pretty damn huge, and steadily so. From what I am observing the curve is juuuust about to stabilize now that we've reach movie quality.

    Just thought I'd clarify that :) 
  • artquest
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    artquest polycounter lvl 13
    I think as a forum primarily consisting of modelers and texture artists we tend to forget what the main factors are when it comes to making the choice of studio wide software.

    Your entire pipeline is dictated by the choice of a hub software. And the needs most impacted by this choice are rigging and animation. This is the main reason why not very  many studios are adopting modo or blender. Maya has a huge ability for customization in these areas and that's why every major film studio uses it. 3ds max has this to a lesser extent but there are still entire studios built around it. 3ds max isn't going anywhere for awhile but I will say it's totally dead in film. (it doesn't support alembic caches!)

    I see more houdini based studios popping up these days (boutique shops for vfx) but all rigging and animation are still done in maya. In fact that is the case every studio that I've been at. Maya is always used for rigging/animation (some places are dragging their feet to get out of soft image... which I understand because it was really great in a lot of ways!)

    But all this points back to say that TD's generally are used to working with the big name packages... all the scripts and power of python already written for maya.... who wants to re-do all of that work? Just to give you a little look into how powerful the tools are at some AAA game studios... At sledgehammer we had a studio of 200 + people working on CoD: Advanced warfare. Of those people.... 2 of them were riggers/TDs. Thats all we really needed. For the most part everything was automated and the 2 wizzards of the rigging department powered through tons of assets with realitive ease. The same is the case at MPC LA... 1 rigger for the whole building. And he's epic!!! This isn't to say that they don't get extra help on occasion but the bulk of the work can be handled by powerful tools written by top notch technical directors.

    No one is going to walk away from that without being shown that everyone can benefit from including other software and not just the modeling department. (which honestly is already the most free department. Literally every place I've been at has said... do whatever you want in whatever program you want, just deliver the final asset in maya or 3ds max.)



  • Veezen
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    Veezen polycounter lvl 9
    Blender is my main software in my workplace (game dev) and I'm not only one there, who use Blender. Of course 3DS Max skills are also necessery, but I'm not use it a lot of time.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    The character in GTA 3 had a single 256x256 texture.  I'm guessing you didn't do any modeling and texturing 15 years ago so you don't really recognize the gigantic changes in game art workflow.

    "However, just because you can put a billion polygons on screen doesn't mean that you have to put a billion polygons on screen. And that's something that game studios, I expect, will learn to better manage in years to come."

    the last 20+ years didn't count?
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    "Is the workflow that different from Gears of War 1 to Gears of War 4?"

    Do you mean original GoW 1 or the remastered GoW 1? Look at all the "how do I do PBR" threads on Polycount.  But this is derailing, I'll just continue to facepalm at all your posts silently from now on.
  • artquest
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    artquest polycounter lvl 13
    pior said:
    If the addition of a normal map and PBR texturing is ''a lot has changed'', then yes a lot has changed. Otherwise, it's pretty much the same. (GTA screenshots)

    Well ... On the game design and animation side, I would agree that not much has changed, as the GTAs from back then are quite mechanically similar to the GTAs of today. But from the perspective of character artists (and modelers in general), we're talking moving from spending a mere few days on a full hero character model + textures, to ... about a month worth of man hours. The workload increase has been pretty damn huge, and steadily so. From what I am observing the curve is juuuust about to stabilize now that we've reach movie quality.

    Just thought I'd clarify that :) 
    Precisely.

    However, just because you can put a billion polygons on screen doesn't mean that you have to put a billion polygons on screen. And that's something that game studios, I expect, will learn to better manage in years to come.
    No one is putting a billion polygons on screen... believe me. I was forced to butcher My Trees and other environment prop art by the tech department to get our level running at 60 FPS. LOL Trust me game artists are forced to be very efficient with what ends up on screen.
    The character in GTA 3 had a single 256x256 texture.  I'm guessing you didn't do any modeling and texturing 15 years ago so you don't really recognize the gigantic changes in game art workflow.

    "However, just because you can put a billion polygons on screen doesn't mean that you have to put a billion polygons on screen. And that's something that game studios, I expect, will learn to better manage in years to come."

    the last 20+ years didn't count?
    I grew up with Amiga, Video Toaster and saw the early days of Lightwave 3D in the early 90s. But really, it's not about how much 3D has changed in 20 years. It's about how less relevant the changes are as we progress on the timeline. If you compare to what we could do back then in 2001 is one thing. But how did things change since 2007, almost 10 years ago? Is the workflow that different from Gears of War 1 to Gears of War 4?






    uhh.... yes it is quite different. I mean sure it's still the same in the sense that we make a high poly and a low poly and bake/texture our assets but you're entirely missing the point if you stop the comparison there. in 2007 you could only have 1 joint influence per vertex. in 2007 no one was making photo real characters for use in realtime AAA games. in 2007 you weren't expected to make facial blendshapes for characters. in 2007 you still needed to explode your mesh for baking. Need I go on?

     I mean I could say that art hasn't changed for humanity in thousands of years. We're just making stuff up out of our heads and putting it into some form that we can share with other humans right?
  • claydough
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    claydough polycounter lvl 10
    claydough said:
    Kwramm said:
    Chimp said:
    Blade113 said:

     I don't quite understand why some of the studios force you into their software.. like, "you have to use Maya/Max (whatever) only, otherwise you can't work here"

    Because engines are often built around 3d packages with custom tools to link from engine to package from simply things like custom exporters that prepare assets for the game to live link stuff. It's useful having everyone being able to help everyone too. If you use Blender in your spare time and you absolutely love a tool and the whole team want it, the studio may well write a version of their own for the package they want to use, for you.

    this.
    * Support from IT & TA. Knowing every package out there deeply and offering top notch support isn't feasible. Most people prefer their TAs having deep knowledge - it's easier if we focus on a few packages.
    * Training. The more packages, the more expensive it gets to buy training materials. When everyone uses different packages it is not possible any more to effectively share knowledge and to optimize workflows across the board.
    * Integration. With asset management, automation (baking, QA, Houdini), export / import to engine. It takes time to develop and support this. The fewer packages involved, the better.
    * Tools. If we know 30 Max users benefit from a tool it's something different than developing a tool for the lone Modo or Blender user.
    * Purchase: we get better conditions when we buy software in bulk and when we buy a certain number of seats.
    * Interoperability: We select software on the basis how well we can make it work together. The more packages in the mix, the more difficult it gets.
    * Division of work: multiple artists and teams may share, re-use and work on the same assets. This is much easier if everyone uses the same software and data formats.

    As a result we want to standardize and limit the use of software packages. We have to find a compromise that works best for the artists, but also for the people who support them. Hence we tell you what we want you to use. And when we introduce new tools, we have to consider all these issues as well. Hence adaption can sometimes be slower on a studio level than on an individual level.

    Also, we want to prevent you from blaming us if we cannot support your strange exotic package, for the reasons mentioned above.Tha
    that's an excellent point...
    No matter how desirable one might feel a toolset might be for another package I have always refused to develop on a software that is ultimately going to hamstring my time and resources. Not that there aren't a cult of developers building up blender but I don't see any exciting threads at TAO or even on the stickied tech threads here for MODO and Blender tools. I don't see a close knit community sharing new exciting knowledge
    ( that is really priceless ) 
    No exciting extended game dev-centric network comraderie sharing tools and resources. ( esprit de corps that is an investment over 17+ years )

    Kwramm said:
    Chimp said:
    Blade113 said:

     I don't quite understand why some of the studios force you into their software.. like, "you have to use Maya/Max (whatever) only, otherwise you can't work here"

    Because engines are often built around 3d packages with custom tools to link from engine to package from simply things like custom exporters that prepare assets for the game to live link stuff. It's useful having everyone being able to help everyone too. If you use Blender in your spare time and you absolutely love a tool and the whole team want it, the studio may well write a version of their own for the package they want to use, for you.

    this.
    * Support from IT & TA. Knowing every package out there deeply and offering top notch support isn't feasible. Most people prefer their TAs having deep knowledge - it's easier if we focus on a few packages.
    * Training. The more packages, the more expensive it gets to buy training materials. When everyone uses different packages it is not possible any more to effectively share knowledge and to optimize workflows across the board.
    * Integration. With asset management, automation (baking, QA, Houdini), export / import to engine. It takes time to develop and support this. The fewer packages involved, the better.
    * Tools. If we know 30 Max users benefit from a tool it's something different than developing a tool for the lone Modo or Blender user.
    * Purchase: we get better conditions when we buy software in bulk and when we buy a certain number of seats.
    * Interoperability: We select software on the basis how well we can make it work together. The more packages in the mix, the more difficult it gets.
    * Division of work: multiple artists and teams may share, re-use and work on the same assets. This is much easier if everyone uses the same software and data formats.

    As a result we want to standardize and limit the use of software packages. We have to find a compromise that works best for the artists, but also for the people who support them. Hence we tell you what we want you to use. And when we introduce new tools, we have to consider all these issues as well. Hence adaption can sometimes be slower on a studio level than on an individual level.

    Also, we want to prevent you from blaming us if we cannot support your strange exotic package, for the reasons mentioned above.Tha

    that's an excellent point...
    No matter how desirable one might feel a toolset might be for another package I have always refused to develop on a software that is ultimately going to hamstring my time and resources. Not that there aren't a cult of developers building up blender but I don't see any exciting threads at TAO or even on the stickied tech threads here for MODO and Blender tools. I don't see a close knit community sharing new exciting knowledge on a scale that is even close to being comparable! ( and that is really priceless ) 
    No exciting extended game dev-centric network comraderie sharing tools and resources that has as much weight and a foundation like you find at creative crash and scriptspot. ( esprit de corps that is an investment over 17+ years )
    You would have more luck getting me to change forums from polycount to gameartisans than you would convincing me to leave a software platform that is built on top of a folder of scripts that exposes everything under the hood in realtime echoed line by line...

    a more powerful dev manual than the actual docs.

  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
     * Support from IT & TA. Knowing every package out there deeply and offering top notch support isn't feasible. Most people prefer their TAs having deep knowledge - it's easier if we focus on a few packages.

    That's actually a bit of a misconception... Imagine a studio relying on Max or Maya, with a whole bunch of TA time dedicated not only to create export tools but also modeling aids for the artists.

    If all of a sudden a new guy is hired and wants to use Blender or any other app for highpoly work, he/she will pretty much never request any modeling tool or script since the whole point is to use a software that is completely familiar and totally tweaked to one's need already.

    As far as character and prop modeling positions are concerned, the only real argument can be the price of the license. Arguing otherwise would like asking sculptors to sculpt in Maya instead of Zbrush/Mudbox/3DCoat because "we're using a Maya pipeline", which would makes no sense :)
  • claydough
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    claydough polycounter lvl 10
    pior said:
     * Support from IT & TA. Knowing every package out there deeply and offering top notch support isn't feasible. Most people prefer their TAs having deep knowledge - it's easier if we focus on a few packages.

    That's actually a bit of a misconception... Imagine a studio relying on Max or Maya, with a whole bunch of TA time dedicated not only to create export tools but also modeling aids for the artists.

    If all of a sudden a new guy is hired and wants to use Blender or any other app for highpoly work, he/she will pretty much never request any modeling tool or script since the whole point is to use a software that is completely familiar and totally tweaked to one's need already.

    As far as character and prop modeling positions are concerned, the only real argument can be the price of the license. Arguing otherwise would like asking sculptors to sculpt in Maya instead of Zbrush/Mudbox/3DCoat because "we're using a Maya pipeline", which would makes no sense :)
    well maybe not Maya as an example...
    unless u know something interesting about how aggressively they are going to continue to fold mudbox and sculpting performance in future versions of Maya or MayaLT?
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    Pior: I had to do work for a client that wanted a Maya file delivered, I haven't touched Maya in 10 years and that little step was painful as hell.  So learning Maya & or Max will help.  Alot of big companies also don't want you installing your own software, they don't want to have to track every employee to make sure they aren't installing pirated software on their systems.  So Blender is probably fine but the studio that lets you use whatever software you want still seems like a mythical unicorn to me, I haven't seen that many.
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Totally yeah, it certainly isn't common ! It sure does exit though.
    As for installing software, indeed, it goes without saying that there are IT protocols to respect.
  • oglu
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    oglu polycount lvl 666
    Pior: ... the studio that lets you use whatever software you want still seems like a mythical unicorn to me, I haven't seen that many.


    yes mythical unicorn... fits good here...
  • Blade113
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    Blade113 polycounter lvl 8
    oglu said:
    Pior: ... the studio that lets you use whatever software you want still seems like a mythical unicorn to me, I haven't seen that many.


    yes mythical unicorn... fits good here...

    more like "I haven't seen any." lol
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