Home General Discussion

Never use turbosmooth?

polycounter lvl 7
Offline / Send Message
Moltar polycounter lvl 7
Today while I was doing some work in my local Internet cafe I was approached by someone interested in my model, he said some kind words then he said (paraphrasing) "You should never use turbosmooth for your highpoly, it can slow you down and dull creativity" He then asked me learn to smooth all my meshes manually with chamfers. He caught me off guard when he said that and I didn't know what to say :thumbdown:

I understand what he mean't because this is how Torfrick works in Modo but Ive always been taught to use turbosmooth and people have told me it produces the best results for your normal maps among many, many other advantages.

because I have never seen this sort of workflow for anything other than highpoly work I have to ask, does this method work well when baking normal details onto your lowpoly, i.e smoothness, floaters etc etc.

Replies

  • lefix
    Offline / Send Message
    lefix polycounter lvl 11
    It really depends, I've heard from AAA games where they didn't use normal maps and used chamfers to create the edge highlights, because the shaders are less costly and polycounts are becoming less of a bottleneck. But i don't think we'll fully get rid of normal maps for quite some time :P

    That aside, I recommend using the mesh smoothing thing within the editable poly, and hotkey the button so you can quickly toggle it on and off while modeling, without using an additional modifier ;)
  • thomasp
    Offline / Send Message
    thomasp hero character
    managing all these polys however, there's a timesink to be discovered. there's a point where your meshes get so dense they become a pain to work on, especially to change the existing shape. if you have all that curvature baked in, good luck massaging it into some other shape.
  • Neox
    Offline / Send Message
    Neox veteran polycounter
    lefix wrote: »
    That aside, I recommend using the mesh smoothing thing within the editable poly, and hotkey the button so you can quickly toggle it on and off while modeling, without using an additional modifier ;)

    you can do the same with the modifier.
  • MephistonX
    Offline / Send Message
    MephistonX polycounter lvl 9
    To be honest, its personal preference really, if you are happy, and can confidently produce the meshes you want using turbosmooth - then do it, if you want to learn a new method, then fine, i really don't think there is a right or wrong way of doing it
  • X-One
    Offline / Send Message
    X-One polycounter lvl 18
    Personally, I find that if somewhat broad iterations or adjustments are going to be required, turbosmooth can be an absolute life saver for me.

    At the end of the day, if you get the results you're looking for, that's all that really matters.
  • JordanN
    Offline / Send Message
    JordanN interpolator
    Everything he said sounds ridiculous tbh.
    "You should never use turbosmooth for your highpoly,
    The point of Turbosmooth is to make something high poly.
    it can slow you down
    So does going to the bathroom.
    and dull creativity
    Must have never seen a Pixar movie.
  • Shiniku
    Offline / Send Message
    Shiniku polycounter lvl 9
    He sounds like he just discovered a workflow he likes and now he thinks everything else is "wrong". Generally, don't listen to blowhards who give unsolicited advice at cafes.
  • whats_true
    Offline / Send Message
    whats_true polycounter lvl 15
    As long as the end result looks good and you did it in a timely manner, you can use NURBS for all I care.

    The only caviot Id say is if your working on a team, work in such a way that others can go back into your file and rebake or change this or that if need be. Its a team project after all, so have your stuff organized accordingly.
  • RogerP
    Offline / Send Message
    RogerP polycounter
    Sounds like he's trying to start a new religion "Turbosmooth = False God"


    l-4711.jpg
  • skyline5gtr
    Offline / Send Message
    skyline5gtr polycounter lvl 9
    Turbosmooth allows you get get a specific curve or average sometimes that you would have to actually model without it
  • EarthQuake
    LOL never use turbosmooth/subd. Sweet advice, thanks.
  • Torch
    Offline / Send Message
    Torch interpolator
    *Throws scalding hot coffee in dude's face*

    K thx bye
  • roosterMAP
    Offline / Send Message
    roosterMAP polycounter lvl 12
    He's right. Turbosmooth is bad. Use opensubdiv instead. lol
  • Gav
    Offline / Send Message
    Gav quad damage
    The first problem is taking advice from some dude in a cafe.

    Actually, how are you in a place where someone in a cafe will 1)know what you're even doing and 2)wants to talk to you?
  • Matt Fagan
  • Dave Jr
    Offline / Send Message
    Dave Jr polycounter lvl 9
    He no like the subD?!
  • Shrike
    Offline / Send Message
    Shrike interpolator
    I heard if you use turbosmooth 3 times in front of a mirror, Biggy Smalls comes haunt you
  • Simmo
    Offline / Send Message
    Simmo polycounter lvl 12
    I thought you were meant to ONLY use Turbosmooth. No editable poly, just model in Turbosmooth :poly142:
  • passerby
    Offline / Send Message
    passerby polycounter lvl 12
    i once heard you never supposed to use the translate tool.
  • kanga
    Offline / Send Message
    kanga quad damage
    Did you mean Tor Frick? He makes awesome stuff. I had a look at a vid and it looks like he puts loads of loops for the circular bits and leaves the flat parts lowpoly. If that is what he is doing he saves some polys I suppose. The advantage with turbo smooth is you can put all your models in a scene under one modifier which make things quicker, but a huge advantage is you can switch the smoothing off a whole scene with the flick of one switch which is handy if you are doing character animations and your scene is heavy. I would still like to know how turbo smooth dulls your creativity.
  • igi
    Offline / Send Message
    igi polycounter lvl 12
    kanga wrote: »
    Did you mean Tor Frick? He makes awesome stuff. I had a look at a vid and it looks like he puts loads of loops for the circular bits and leaves the flat parts lowpoly. If that is what he is doing he saves some polys I suppose. The advantage with turbo smooth is you can put all your models in a scene under one modifier which make things quicker, but a huge advantage is you can switch the smoothing off a whole scene with the flick of one switch which is handy if you are doing character animations and your scene is heavy. I would still like to know how turbo smooth dulls your creativity.

    while I agree with perks of using classic modeling tools (like way faster boolean operations) one thing to not miss is that he also using Modo's 'rounded edge shader' to get quick smooth corners around non-subd meshes along with adding support loops for shading afaik. Though that shader isn't that usable for large scale model parts, but really working well with smaller bits and embedded pieces.

    and this one is a great example of hybrid(poly and subd) workflow too, imo.
  • Dataday
    Offline / Send Message
    Dataday polycounter lvl 8
    Speaking of the round edge shader he makes use of.. this is it in action

    [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwsomsvF99Y[/ame]

    There is also the potential to add edge weights instead of additional loops/polys.
  • shaderfx
    Offline / Send Message
    shaderfx polycounter lvl 9
    Next time somebody tells you this you slap two more turbsmooth modifiers on your model to piss them off :)
  • seth.
    Offline / Send Message
    seth. polycounter lvl 14
    I was all get up and go till that turbosmooth incident, now I just stay in bed and bingewatch netflix...occasionally I drag my arse to a cafe, where I warn the young'uns not to fall into the same trap I did. I dont even have the creativity to model a noose...when will it end?
  • thomasp
    Offline / Send Message
    thomasp hero character
    shaderfx wrote: »
    Next time somebody tells you this you slap two more turbsmooth modifiers on your model to piss them off :)

    well, that sounds like solid advice for pissing off oneself, so to speak.
  • kanga
    Offline / Send Message
    kanga quad damage
    @igi Thanks! What is the precise advantage of this technique though?
  • igi
    Offline / Send Message
    igi polycounter lvl 12
    kanga wrote: »
    @igi Thanks! What is the precise advantage of this technique though?

    there's a thread about this technique in technical talk section.

    basically it smooths the sharp edges on poly models and also the intersected parts between multiple subd and/or poly models. there's a lot of advantages for intersected/embedded details on a model as well as can be used for fast edge smoothing for non-subd polygon models. still though it's not that useful for bigger pieces or on the main shapes of a model, you'd still want to get the shading by either subdivision surfaces or edgeloop techniques.
    And it's bakeable in Modo, which is another cool feature Modo has.
  • Moltar
    Offline / Send Message
    Moltar polycounter lvl 7
    I didn't expect this many comments! Well, they guy must have been watching me or something(to answer why he came over). I should have elaborated a bit more on why he said "never use turbosmooth", I was doing hard surface work at the time, not character or organic modeling which works better with TS. I assume he thought it would work better if I just used highpoly meshes and smooth the edges myself with chamfers and edit poly modifiers to revert the smoothed edge (at the click of a button) which makes sense.

    My main question was, can I still get a clean normal map from this workflow, e.g will smooth edges bake well onto my LP?
  • Geezus
    Offline / Send Message
    Geezus mod
    There is no right or wrong. Use whatever tools you have at your disposal to create the best asset you can based on what's needed/desired, and stay within your budget.
  • artquest
    Offline / Send Message
    artquest polycounter lvl 13
    Geezus wrote: »
    There is no right or wrong. Use whatever tools you have at your disposal to create the best asset you can based on what's needed/desired, and stay within your budget.

    +1

    It's all about a mindset of problem solving! If you can find a better/faster way to do something then do it.
  • low odor
    Offline / Send Message
    low odor polycounter lvl 17
    Turbosmooth is cheating. If you are not measuring and cutting each subdivision manually you'll never be a real 3d artist
  • Moltar
    Offline / Send Message
    Moltar polycounter lvl 7
    Alright then :) Thanks for your help guys. When in doubt I always polycount...
  • Brygelsmack
    Offline / Send Message
    Brygelsmack polycounter lvl 11
    shaderfx wrote: »
    Next time somebody tells you this you slap two more turbsmooth modifiers on your model to piss them off :)
    Exactly. Then stare deep into their eyes. They will walk away in shame and you have asserted your dominance.
  • kanga
    Offline / Send Message
    kanga quad damage
    @igi thanks!

    @low odor I guess the light hasnt gone on for me yet. What I see is a mid poly with the possibility of baking in Modo only because of the rounded shader,.... er would that make me a real artist?

    I am guessing as polycounts go up for engines that this technique will become more attractive.
  • WarrenM
    A "real artist" is one who gets quality work done on or before the deadline. That's it. However that happens should be fine.
  • jStins
    Offline / Send Message
    jStins interpolator
    low odor wrote: »
    Turbosmooth is cheating. If you are not measuring and cutting each subdivision manually you'll never be a real 3d artist

    This is fine I suppose, but I prefer to plot my models by hand on organic graph paper using artisanal chalk. Then I hand code the vertex matrices on magnetic tape and feed the data into the computer. It's a lot of work, but it gives my models a warmth that only a real artist understands.
  • Mstankow
    Offline / Send Message
    Mstankow polycounter lvl 11
    Sometimes I use turbosmooth but with a bunch of hard edges and then I use z-remesher in zbrush to round off all the hard edges. It doesn't work a lot but when it does it is really awesome.
  • .Wiki
    Offline / Send Message
    .Wiki polycounter lvl 8
    Shinigami wrote: »
    so at gamescom today the guys who advertised for their universities told me they arent allowed to use tris at all. It is true. The hype is real

    LOL
    Triangulate their faces!
  • .Wiki
    Offline / Send Message
    .Wiki polycounter lvl 8
    Shinigami wrote: »
    i mean the fees were enormous. I was thinking, what da hell. If you take that kind of fees at least offer correct information
    Yeah they are usally around 2500 or 5000€ per semester here in germany. Some like htw Berlin and htw mittweida offer some interactive entertainment courses for free. These schools owned by the state only want a fee between 80 and 250€ per semester. You will have some 3d courses but also a lot of scientific and informatic courses.

    You don´t need to study 3d if you got a internet connection you could learn this stuff at home or during other studies. I had one 3d course during my hole studies and it only covered the basics. I learned all the other knowledge on my own and during some smaller jobs. So there is no need to spend thousends of euros in a degree.

    Ahh but i think this is the wrong thread for this discussion, there is already a thread dedicated for games education :)
  • Jesse Moody
    Offline / Send Message
    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 17
    this is literally my only response to that..

    [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlRnx7wz0Q0[/ame]
Sign In or Register to comment.