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The most astounding fact [MISLEADING TITLE -mods]

polycounter lvl 6
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repete polycounter lvl 6
We can land a probe on a comet:

Philae_on_the_comet_Front_view.jpg

but we can't feed our own species:

2iDulHs.jpg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcdtVD8X1-A

:poly131:

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  • Brian "Panda" Choi
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    Brian "Panda" Choi high dynamic range
    Whoa, we can totally feed our own species.

    I would like to assert that our scientific minds as a whole desire to put more effort to space exploration than feeding a portion of the species.
  • Amsterdam Hilton Hotel
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    Amsterdam Hilton Hotel insane polycounter
    hey don't say "we" cause i can't do either of those things
  • Kridian
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    Kridian polycounter lvl 14
    Now see, the OP is the guy in Interstellar that keeps his mind in the dirt. (farmer mentality)

    We need Star Ships... like yesterday!
  • Blond
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    Blond polycounter lvl 9
    OP is right though. It's a great achievement but should try to achieve more rojects of this scale for the human race.
  • MagicSugar
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    MagicSugar polycounter lvl 10
    I like the Sam Kinison's solution to world hunger.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0q4o58pKwA"]Sam Kinison World Hunger - YouTube[/ame]
  • dfacto
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    dfacto polycounter lvl 18
    Blond wrote: »
    OP is right though. It's a great achievement but should try to achieve more rojects of this scale for the human race.

    In principle I can't argue with you. In practice, what would you suggest as a viable project, and what is the cost benefit analysis?
  • Youngy798
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    Youngy798 polycounter lvl 4
    dfacto wrote: »
    In principle I can't argue with you. In practice, what would you suggest as a viable project, and what is the cost benefit analysis?

    We have more than enough food to go around, its just a matter of getting it distributed to the people who actually need it. We throw away tons of food that doesn't look right, or isn't perfectly fresh because it wont sell. If all that food was shipped to Africa and given out, we could probably do a good job at stopping world hunger.

    If we invested trillions in feeding everyone instead of war, the world would be a better place. But war benefits the rich, feeding the poor doesn't.
  • WarrenM
    I love the Bill Hicks routine on smart missiles. Talking about how we can target an air vent from 10 miles away and stuff. Basically, "Couldn't we, conceivably, use that technology to shoot food at hungry people?"
  • Ferg
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    Ferg polycounter lvl 17
    dude... implying that space exploration is somehow responsible for problems like global hunger and militarism is beyond blind oversimplification. You might as well say "we can afford to maintain our highways, but we can't feed our own species" for all the sense it makes.

    If you really just have to pick a single bad guy in our spending priorities, maybe pick a smarter target, like the military, or the influence of corporate money on politics. Those two things alone cost us orders of magnitude more, and deliver orders of magnitude less in terms of benefiting humanity.
  • Zocky
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    Zocky greentooth
    Eh i think that's not where the problem is, in fact, i think space exploration actually does a lot of good things, it's just that people have no idea just how many things that they use every day, was maybe direct result of space eploration.

    Space exploration is a good thing, it's never bad thing to seek out and explore new things, who knows in how many ways that can help humankind. Like, when that comet comes to kill us all, you probably want to have way to defend it.

    Now why we spend so much money for fighting each other, for wars, for weapons (i mean just look at the budget some countries spend), now that's a little different i think. But space exploration is really not making kids starve....

    I don't want to sound like an ass, but i always find it funny how people who bitch about space exploration, probably uses a lot of stuff that was made at least partially thanks to the space exploration, every day without even knowing it....

    IIRC, Tyson once said, if you take a usa dollar coin, and the depth of it represent usa military spendings, and wanted to compare NASA research in that, you wouldn't even go past the ink (or whatever it is) through that coin (as in, nasa's budget was like 0.5% of the miliary, iirc). That's kind saying something i think.

    //edited

    Eh just look at the pic:
    NASA_budget__11-11-12.png

    Though i kinda wonder if all of us jumped on the OP a bit too fast, not sure if he was actually saying that science is responsible of that. :P
  • Autocon
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    Autocon polycounter lvl 15
    Such a broad blanket statement that ignores so many complex issues.

    But if were doing broad blanket statements here is one...

    The poorest countries are also the countries with the highest birth rates per person. If you can't sustain yourself with food and shelter why should I feel bad when you bring 4 to 6 more children into the world and complain how they have nothing?

    Over population is a real thing and a big problem. Just because you CAN have children doesn't mean you should. Especially when you cannot provide for them. This issue isnt limited to third world countries as its an issue in the States as well, just not to the epic proportions it is in other parts of the world.
  • Blond
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    Blond polycounter lvl 9
    dfacto wrote: »
    In principle I can't argue with you. In practice, what would you suggest as a viable project, and what is the cost benefit analysis?

    I'm pretty sure we could use these sorts of technology to facilitate transports of food and ressources accross the globe.
  • Ace-Angel
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    Ace-Angel polycounter lvl 12
    I don't even understand the point of this topic, like seriously, this is the type of stuff you spend 2 hours IN A VIDEO (forget text written) talking about 200 different Independent and Dependent variables per region, with social normative models and conflicts of their regimes.

    Not something that can be talked about in a random art forum, let alone using pictures alone.

    But OK, sure, whatever, I guess the person over at NASA who is charge of wiring the dry-run circuits, they are part of a billion money laundry service for the US Goverment, it's not like space programs constitute less then 1% of the GDP cost, as well the private sector.
  • xvampire
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    xvampire polycounter lvl 14
    RDhhbyEl.png
    :( u dont lyk science why ? sad :(


    anyway you can check out amazing updates for their photos here
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/europeanspaceagency/15560572326/in/set-72157638315605535/

    love it, instant desktop background

    7VUnIfkl.png
  • McGreed
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    McGreed polycounter lvl 15
    Ehm, you do know that space exploration and research has actually contributed towards better lives for mankind, right? Those little things inventions and improvments such as water filtration and purification, cleaner energy, medical health improvements...

    It's not just all about shooting a rocket into space and look at pretty stars. :P

    EDIT: Add a link with a bit more info: http://kearth101.cbslocal.com/2011/07/21/list-stuff-we-use-everyday-that-was-invented-from-the-space-program/
  • LRoy
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    LRoy polycounter lvl 10
    Autocon wrote: »
    Such a broad blanket statement that ignores so many complex issues.

    But if were doing broad blanket statements here is one...

    The poorest countries are also the countries with the highest birth rates per person. If you can't sustain yourself with food and shelter why should I feel bad when you bring 4 to 6 more children into the world and complain how they have nothing?

    Over population is a real thing and a big problem. Just because you CAN have children doesn't mean you should. Especially when you cannot provide for them. This issue isnt limited to third world countries as its an issue in the States as well, just not to the epic proportions it is in other parts of the world.

    On the flip side, if you think about why people used to have so many children, it's mostly because not all of them would survive.
  • artquest
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    artquest polycounter lvl 13
    LRoy wrote: »
    On the flip side, if you think about why people used to have so many children, it's mostly because not all of them would survive.

    Very true, not to mention if you go back further in history.... in tribal areas you want your group to be larger then others so the bigger your families are the more warriors you have.
  • Aabel
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    Aabel polycounter lvl 6
    Whoa, we can totally feed our own species.

    I would like to assert that our scientific minds as a whole desire to put more effort to space exploration than feeding a portion of the species.

    Maybe it's not purely a science problem as much as it is political and economic? There is plenty of food, but getting it to people who need it, without completely destroying what domestic agriculture there is, and without the food being used as a weapon in local power struggles is a very big challenge. Perhaps it's an even bigger challenge than landing a probe on a comet millions of miles away.
  • Stirls
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    Stirls polycounter lvl 8
    You must also keep in mind that it's not as easy as to just go over to these third-world countries and "give" them food. There's a lot of chaos over there, and the more powerful will steal food from the people who cannot defend themselves.

    At least, I know this happened with supplying clean water to villages over there. They'd have the water for some time, but then a convoy of armed dudes would roll through and just take it.

    It's stupid to even focus on space exploration here. Just creates some false dichotomy. Space and feeding the hungry couldn't be more different. As stated above, far higher amounts of money are put into defense.
  • AtticusMars
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    AtticusMars greentooth
    Trolled hard IMO
  • Muzzoid
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    Muzzoid polycounter lvl 10
    I actually legitimately dislike you Repete, for some reason this dumb argument pisses me off to my core.

    I simply have to ask you, where do you think the money goes once it is spent? It doesn't just dissapear into thin air.

    No it goes into the pockets of hard working engineers and scientists, and it goes to all the businesses supplying raw materials and goods. It goes to the super markets and shops to feed those engineers and scientists. India getting a space program is one of the best things that has happened in India for a very long time. Well paid jobs that encourage science and technology and pour money into local communities instead of into the pockets of corrupt politicians and business men. It is also widely reported to be the most efficient branch of the Indian govt. It gives the people a reason to dream, and it gives people hope and the resources to make it out of the slums. A successful space program through history has always benefited economies more than equal investment into almost any other area.

    I wish Africa had a space program as well. It would do a a fucking lot more than religious fanatics converting people under the guise of "feeding the poor".
  • aajohnny
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    aajohnny polycounter lvl 13
    WarrenM wrote: »
    I love the Bill Hicks routine on smart missiles. Talking about how we can target an air vent from 10 miles away and stuff. Basically, "Couldn't we, conceivably, use that technology to shoot food at hungry people?"

    Stealth Banana! Fuck yes! I was thinking of this read I saw the Op's post.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOMDMWzhO9k
  • repete
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    repete polycounter lvl 6
    Had the same debate in work the other day and that’s why I posted it. The responses were much the same and some people also felt butt hurt. If a global effort was made to make an impact on poverty and increase the living standards for everyone you would see a decline in war zones which means smaller budgets for the military (of course a no go for the superpowers). Most people in every corner of the world just what to have a normal life just like you and I, food, roof over their heads a job to go to and a decent place to educate their children. When one or more of these basic needs are not provided for or simply not attainable then you don’t need to look far to see the damage this causes and this damage runs through generations to come. We might think “what happens over there does not interest me” but it does indirectly affect all of us because we share this planet, take globalisation for instance.

    Don’t get me wrong I have a firm belief that science is the only way forward for humans and I am a big fan of people like deGrasse and krauss but major achievements in space should and are possible to achieve closer to home, the bureaucracy of the western world keeps us from evolving together and that will be our downfall, that should be a warning to all of us but we are far to busy to even notice it. Where do all the resources go once they are depleted ? they actually do disappear into thin air and money can’t buy them back.

    Remember folks food for though should not be turned into fuel for hatred no matter how it is presented because as I have often noticed it is the hard debates that get people thinking / debating and when people are thinking they are actually hard to pin down and manipulate.

    pete :poly121:
  • Brian "Panda" Choi
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    Brian "Panda" Choi high dynamic range
    Science is the only way forward?

    Seems kind limited and narrow. Perhaps a dangerous world view in the right hands.

    e8f68586c05e9c608bf08efa1daeb752.jpg
  • LRoy
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    LRoy polycounter lvl 10
    this is a more appropriate jeff goldblum quote for this thread

    8bce00e2853c6e2114fa905d9e8feaba2ba1bc0753ab4c60a0ff55c99fb337a5.jpg
  • Zocky
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    Zocky greentooth
    Hm repete, i just can't agree there. You keep saying how science is the only way forward, and yet you keep blaming this same science.

    Look, at some point, when i was kid, my family was so poor we didn't even have money for bread. On on the other hand, that never stopped me from like space exploration and anything related to that. In fact, i was totally nut about those things, and even am nowdays.

    So i think i have atlest SOME understanding on both subjects, hunger and space exploration. And i still say, if you think space exploration is guilty for world hunger, you have it wrong man.

    Did you see that chard i provided you? Do you see char, where it shows, that budget for entire history that nasa exists, meaning, all the money that ever went into nasa in it's history, is still not even for one yearly budget spending on USA military. And that's just talking about USA.

    So clearly, If you already must blame something, atleast take a look where most of the money is spent. NASA REALLY isn't your problem at all here.

    And iirc, i think Tyson once said, for every dollar that is put into space exploration in nasa, usa gets 3 dollar in return...or something like that. IF anything it seems to be doing good, not bad.

    But really, it's a little more complicated subject than that. And lastly, do you know how many poor kids across the world would you feed, if you didn't watch TV, if you didn't ever buy any game, didn't buy any computer, any toy, any mobile phone etc. With your logic, i don't know how you can live with yourself if you assume that for each of mobile phone you buy, countless people die from hunger...and you could help them, but you refused too.

    And one last thing, one does wonder if you are such a humanitarian and wants to help people, why do you choose to work in field, that is all about luxury, meaning, for somewhat rich people, at least enough to buy expensive computers only to play some computer games, that is just worsening situation, if i go by your logic?

    Nothing personal, just showing why i think your logic is bad....

    If you really want to start debate that would in any way help the situation, it's better to ask, how do we think we can help the situation, not just blaming things randomly like that....
  • [Deleted User]
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  • Mark Dygert
    If you want to help feed people what's stopping you? Why wait for pampered, well fed, narcissistic bureaucrats to do something.
    http://www.feedthechildren.org/
    http://thewaterproject.org/
    http://waterwellsforafrica.org/
    http://www.backpackfarm.com/
    http://www.acfs.org.za/
    http://food4africa.org/
    http://www.worldbank.org/
    http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/
    and on and on and on...

    Personally I think we humans are capable of working on both.

    There is a lot of overlap when figuring out how to feed people with limited resources in space and feed people on earth with limited resources. Also delivering methods like what was developed for the Mars rover can help deliver supplies and aid to remote disaster areas.

    Governments by nature are fairly myopic and self centered, they aren't likely to focus on the problems of people outside their borders unless it has some kind of affect within their borders. But that shouldn't stop you from joining some of the people who are doing these things without waiting for their government to wake up.
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 18
    Autocon wrote: »
    Such a broad blanket statement that ignores so many complex issues.

    But if were doing broad blanket statements here is one...

    The poorest countries are also the countries with the highest birth rates per person. If you can't sustain yourself with food and shelter why should I feel bad when you bring 4 to 6 more children into the world and complain how they have nothing?

    Over population is a real thing and a big problem. Just because you CAN have children doesn't mean you should. Especially when you cannot provide for them. This issue isnt limited to third world countries as its an issue in the States as well, just not to the epic proportions it is in other parts of the world.

    Well those same places have lack of education, birth control, and many times a Patriarchal society. They also as stated if they are a rural farming society need the children to help with the farming. There is also the social ideal in some of them of your children taking care of you in your old age, so more kids = a better chance for good retirement.

    Might mention with the education, the opposite end would be religious beliefs that press for more children.
  • Muzzoid
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    Muzzoid polycounter lvl 10
    Yeah Pete. Don't bother even trying to argue if you are just going to ignore the points.

    The core arguments you need to address being.

    • Money spent on space goes into the pockets of hard working engineers, scientists and machine shops, causing money to flow into the economy.
    • Space has NO reason to be singled out as bad, when we have so much bank corruption and greed with money not even circulating in the economy.
    • Space is one of the solutions. Providing widespread cheap uncensored internet to the developing world will be an information revolution in these places.
    • Charity has very little in the way of actual results. Education and inspiration on the other hand has repeatable been shown to be a key part of the solution.
    • Just because people are popping out babies without the ability to support them doesn't mean we are obligated to help them.

    I want hard clear rebuttals to these.
  • Skamberin
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    Skamberin polycounter lvl 13
    We can do x but we can't do y! That's some seriously ignorant shit man.
  • stickadtroja
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    stickadtroja polycounter lvl 11
    Muzz wrote: »
    Just because people are popping out babies without the ability to support them doesn't mean we are obligated to help them.

    this is the most ingorant thing ive seen in a while.
    we are obligated to help them, solely because we constatly steal their natural resources. which in turn creates poverty. which causes wars. and starvation. and stops the prevention of famine like aids and ebola.

    does people serously think that the african people are solely responsible for this themselves?
    when you see red cross ad, of a starving person somewhere in africa, you think; "yeah you should have thought of that before your parents brought you into this world?"
    if so, we are further from the solution than i thought.

    heres a thing. none of us, me, you, the white people of the western world, DESERVES our current living standard. we simply had luck, to be born into the minority that oppresses the majority. our priviliges wasnt given to us by earlier generations, it was STOLEN.

    so please, try to understand that we live in a global world, and most of the things happening, if not all, should be the concern to all of us. all other mindsets are backwards and lead to conflict.
  • WarrenM
    It's two sided, stick. What you're saying is true, long term. The statement you are refuting is true, short term. Both are valid in ways.

    In other words, maybe they're poor because of my country's oppression and theft of resources or whatever it might be. And you can put that on me if you'd like, sure. However, if you have nothing and don't foresee having anything in the future ... having kids you can't feed seems like a logical failure. However, there are religious and societal pressures at play as noted earlier.

    Blah, it's complicated...
  • Muzzoid
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    Muzzoid polycounter lvl 10
    It's not ignorant, it's just heartless.

    We get to choose who we care about, I hate to say it. If you want to live with guilt for your ancestors be my guest, but I refuse to take part in that guilt. Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't help, in fact that isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying this wearing your heart on your sleeve facebook activism is not the answer.

    And besides if you actually do the research you will realize how little charity has helped in Africa. I'm about to say something super controversial, but none-the less as far as i can tell is true.

    The number one best thing we could do for Africa is set up a manufacturing industry in Africa employing the people and giving them jobs. You need to make africa a functioning economy, not a calf suckling on the tit of the developed world for the rest of time.

    http://www.ted.com/talks/leslie_t_chang_the_voices_of_china_s_workers?language=en#
  • stickadtroja
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    stickadtroja polycounter lvl 11
    i dont think its a logical failure.
    in under developed countries, there is usually no social safety net. like wellfare, statfunded pension, minimum wage, or free healthcare. so, if you want to be taken care of when you are old, or cant work for other reasons, the family is the only thing you can count on. if you have tons of children, you have way better chances of living the last part of your life in somewhat comfort.
    this is supported by the fact, that if you raise the standard of living in any country, the birthrate goes down. in sweden its down so far, we die more than we give birth.


    btw, if anybody want me to support these facts with sources, i will do

    EDIT; was a response to warren
  • WarrenM
    stick - Right, those are the societal pressures I conceded to.
  • stickadtroja
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    stickadtroja polycounter lvl 11
    well muzz

    "Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't help, in fact that isn't what I'm saying at all"

    "Just because people are popping out babies without the ability to support them doesn't mean we are obligated to help them."

    those two sentences dont really give of the same vibe.

    for the rest of the stuff, like charity isnt working, and that improving the industry trough manufactories would be more viable, i agree. but then we are talking about HOW TO help. which is good. what bothers me is when people asking why we SHOULD help. that we live in excess, and others in dispair, should be reason enough.
  • lotet
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    lotet hero character
    Fuck yeah space exploration is awesome! thats what this thread is about right?...right?

    oh wait :(
  • Muzzoid
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    Muzzoid polycounter lvl 10
    I was asking a question, i didn't say i agreed with it, i was just summarizing the general arguments. I wanted to know why Repete thinks we should help them. If you read my earlier post i said a similar thing about india and africa with industry.

    "that we live in excess, and others in dispair, should be reason enough."

    I want to know what the limits of that are? If there was a dying alien race on mars, are we obligated to help them because they exist? Is your compassion exclusive to humans? I can't think of a logical reason for why I am obligated to help these people.

    Instead if you feel compassion, let it be compassion. Don't try and rope others into this obligation speak.
  • stickadtroja
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    stickadtroja polycounter lvl 11
    im a vegeterian for example, so yes, i defenatly belive that our compassion should not only encompass our species, or our races/ nationalities/ cultural indentities for that matter.

    the limits is obviously to what extent we can. would we surive if we consumed less, and gave that money and resources to the more needing? yes. then we should. we HAVE enough recources to feed eveyone. its just a matter of distributing them right.

    i dont think its very controversial to say that we can consume less. it doesnt mean you have to live like a monk in a monestary, without worldy posessions, but when you are considering to bying your secound car, or buy clothes eveyday just cause you like shopping, or the new ihpone when your old one is working perfectly, i think you are doing excessive consuming, and that money would be better spent somewhere else, on someone else.

    edit: the reason to do this, is simply that the world would be a better place.
  • Mask_Salesman
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    Mask_Salesman polycounter lvl 13
    We can afford Polycount but we can't afford to feed our species, everybody in this thread should be ashamed.
    ;)



    Obvious trolling aside that gallery is pretty freaking sweet.
    15349407860_5ba90e314c_z.jpg
  • repete
  • xvampire
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    xvampire polycounter lvl 14
    We can afford Polycount but we can't afford to feed our species, everybody in this thread should be ashamed.
    ;)



    Obvious trolling aside that gallery is pretty freaking sweet.
    15349407860_5ba90e314c_z.jpg


    I am a bit disappointed on how small indirect lighting in outerspace no matter how much we crank up the exposure :( ( except if it extremely overexposure )

    probably this is why most space game and movie use exaggerated nebula or planetary light bounces
  • Ace-Angel
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    Ace-Angel polycounter lvl 12
    repete wrote: »
    I read that as "Immigration, World Poverty and CUMballs...", I need to lay off the Internets for a bit.
  • yodude87
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    yodude87 polycounter lvl 5
    cmon, thats like saying "i am a genius at math, but im not SO good at biology. im not worth it."

    (although its wrong saying we fail to feed our species. we acomplish it, given the right proportions)
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