Death threats for talks about sexism in video games

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  • Mask_Salesman
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    Mask_Salesman polycounter lvl 8
    I was gonna say how well Gir & Baj defused the start of an ugly thread derailment...


    Seriously tho the internet has gotten abit out of hand lately, once it found out trolls had power over Phil Fish, it just kind of forgot where the line was and became power mad.

    *leaves thread forever*
  • linkov
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    linkov polycounter lvl 8
    But how you decide which opinion is good one and which one is bad? In my world women should be treated equaly, same goes for any other race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. I am however, against anyone who uses such controversial topics, to make name for themselves, or money, or gain some kind of power. And I believe that this is exactly that Anita Sarkeesyan is doing. And the fact she cancelled this event under a death threat, reassures me even more.

    And no Warren, I'm not trying to be annoying. I firmly believe that most of so called activists for any kind of movements is just there for the money or fame, which in turn leads to money.

    Also I'm sorry I snapped like that, I just reaaly don't like when people trying to shut me up like stickadtroja did. I find this offending, but surprisingly I'm the one who's got the warning.
  • WarrenM
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    WarrenM Polycount Sponsor
    But how you decide which opinion is good one and which one is bad?
    Look, you're free to have an opinion and others are free to disagree with it or even ridicule you for it. And vice versa. The end.
  • Kitty|Owl
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    Kitty|Owl polycounter lvl 3
    I don't really think anyone can deny that there is an issue with sexism and misogyny in gaming (not necessarily games themselves, but the community), its a difficult thing to avoid extreme views and general assholery when people are anonymous.
    However (and this might be a difficult idea for some to accept) in my opinion, how people behave online generally reflects how they think offline (whether they express their opinion or not publicly where they can be challenged), what this tells me is pretty ugly.

    So while it certainly is an issue in gaming, it is not an isolated issue and personally I think it is better spending more time on educating IRL and in schools than pointing a finger at an industry where the majority of consumers are anonymous.

    That being said as developers we can support/make changes to also reflect this (since many people receive most of their education through modern entertainment (tv, games, film) and choose not to think for themselves).

    basically my opinion is that large portion of the population is uneducated/poorly educated and as a result there is much assholery. it's pretty simple.


    and to add to the specific topic onhand,
    I think cancelling the talk was a good response regarding security issues, whether the threat had teeth or not. As for the publicity thing that has been doing a back and forth over the last page, publicity raises awareness and even if you don't like/agree totally with the person at the front of that, it has got you talking and thinking about your own opinion on this issue and actually discussing it (along with many others).
  • Skamberin
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    Skamberin polycounter lvl 7
    linkov wrote: »
    But how you decide which opinion is good one and which one is bad? In my world women should be treated equaly, same goes for any other race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. I am however, against anyone who uses such controversial topics, to make name for themselves, or money, or gain some kind of power. And I believe that this is exactly that Anita Sarkeesyan is doing. And the fact she cancelled this event under a death threat, reassures me even more.

    And no Warren, I'm not trying to be annoying. I firmly believe that most of so called activists for any kind of movements is just there for the money or fame, which in turn leads to money.

    Also I'm sorry I snapped like that, I just reaaly don't like when people trying to shut me up like stickadtroja did. I find this offending, but surprisingly I'm the one who's got the warning.

    I agree with you on most points, then again I find the current trend of social activism eyerollingly stupid and sometimes downright bigoted in it's extremism.
    However, nomatter what another person says, don't attack them for it :/ stickad called your opinions unsympathetic and told you to keep them out of the thread, which is a dick move, but you brought profanity into it and insulted him/her personally, thats the difference.

    Argue against the opinion, not the person, and don't get so attached to your opinions you take disagreement as a personal slight.
  • xvampire
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    xvampire polycounter lvl 10
    there is debate from opposite side for this?
    so much for free speech :(

    I never agree with anita sakeesian, but looking all the threat to many female gamedev lately,
    seems the threat is genuine ... :(

    why would anyone do that?

    if someone made threat to my GF I will take it really2 seriously, ( in fact she got some stalker already >_>)
  • Skamberin
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    Skamberin polycounter lvl 7
    Deaththreats to devs have been around since someone could send them anonymously.
    Phil Fish left the internet over them, Sarkeesian went to the media with hers and focused on the misogynistic aspects of it, that's the only difference.
    It's not some coordinated sudden appearance of hatred for women in gaming :I

    Ignore, report, take precautions as you usually would and keep making awesome things.
  • iconoplast
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    iconoplast polycounter lvl 7
    The entire situation is screwed up and I blame people on both "sides" to be honest.
    That's at best an incredibly misguided thing to say in a conversation about getting detailed death threats. You're saying that you believe these women are complicit or otherwise to blame for being threatened. If that's not what you mean, it would be a really good idea to clarify your point and perhaps leave "sides" out of it.
    LRoy wrote: »
    I've gotten worse threats by winning a call of duty match.
    Really? Someone threatened to kill as many women as possible on a university campus and make the "deadliest school shooting in American history" in response to what you were doing and the FBI was involved in investigating? This guy specifically mentioned the Montreal Massacre and said he'd make it worse. That's an incident where a guy shot 28 people, deliberately separating men and women, saying all the women were feminists, then shooting them. He killed 14 of them and then killed himself. One woman died because she asked for help after she was shot and the shooter responded by stabbing her repeatedly to ensure that she died. He wasn't out of ammo -- when he died he had at least 60 rounds left. But he chose to stab that woman instead. The person making the threat called that guy a hero.
    Leinad wrote: »
    When you have over 3 billion anonymous users online, it's no surprise that a statistically small portion of said user-base accounts for what seems to be rampant attacks towards PEOPLE. This is not just a women's issue, every human being experiences harassment online.
    There is a HUGE difference between someone in a Call of Duty match or whatever saying "I'm going to kill you" and someone texting your personal cell phone or sending you a detailed description of how they are going to rape you to death and then choke you with your husband's detached genitalia, then texting/tweeting you your address (in the above linked story, there are notes elsewhere that threats were delivered via cell and via twitter, both including her home address). You have NOT had worse threats playing anything and it is not even close to "everyone gets harassed online". You've almost certainly never had someone tell you that they want to kill your children because they'll grow up to be feminist and thus are worthless and should be killed. There is no universe in which this is equal to generic online harassment. The random guy on a forum who says "I want to kill the guy who made this change to my favorite game" is not even close to the same as "I genuinely know where you live, the names of your family members, their addresses and phone numbers, and I'll come rape and kill you and make your family watch".
  • Aabel
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    Aabel polycounter lvl 3
    xvampire wrote: »
    there is debate from opposite side for this?
    so much for free speech :(

    I never agree with anita sakeesian, but looking all the threat to many female gamedev lately,
    seems the threat is genuine ... :(

    why would anyone do that?

    if someone made threat to my GF I will take it really2 seriously, ( in fact she got some stalker already >_>)


    My wife currently works on a game much higher profile than anything the two women who have been threatened work on, and hasn't received any threats at all in her entire career in the games industry which spans over 10 years and more than half at a senior position and across 3 major corporations. Unfortunately all we are hearing about are cases that the media can sensationalize which attracts viewers and advertising revenue.
  • Luken
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    Luken polycounter lvl 2
  • iconoplast
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    iconoplast polycounter lvl 7
    Aabel wrote: »
    My wife currently works on a game much higher profile than anything the two women who have been threatened work on, and hasn't received any threats at all in her entire career in the games industry which spans over 10 years and more than half at a senior position and across 3 major corporations. Unfortunately all we are hearing about are cases that the media can sensationalize which attracts viewers and advertising revenue.
    Has your wife publicly said anything about feminism or women working in the industry, especially while identifying as a game developer? That's what attracts the vermin.
  • Aabel
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    Aabel polycounter lvl 3
    Luken wrote: »

    I don't think i'll understand the people who send death threats, but this video is what I imagine they are all doing right now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow---AaOIEo


    If you don't know about GNAA and FYAD look them up and this whole situation will start to make more sense.
  • Aabel
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    Aabel polycounter lvl 3
    iconoplast wrote: »
    Has your wife publicly said anything about feminism or women working in the industry, especially while identifying as a game developer? That's what attracts the vermin.


    She has attended fan conventions publicly as a developer. No vermin. She has mentored women to help them get started in the industry, no vermin.
  • Goeddy
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    Goeddy polycounter lvl 6
    iconoplast wrote: »
    There is a HUGE difference between someone in a Call of Duty match or whatever saying "I'm going to kill you" and someone texting your personal cell phone or sending you a detailed description of how they are going to rape you to death and then choke you with your husband's detached genitalia, then texting/tweeting you your address (in the above linked story, there are notes elsewhere that threats were delivered via cell and via twitter, both including her home address). You have NOT had worse threats playing anything and it is not even close to "everyone gets harassed online". You've almost certainly never had someone tell you that they want to kill your children because they'll grow up to be feminist and thus are worthless and should be killed. There is no universe in which this is equal to generic online harassment. The random guy on a forum who says "I want to kill the guy who made this change to my favorite game" is not even close to the same as "I genuinely know where you live, the names of your family members, their addresses and phone numbers, and I'll come rape and kill you and make your family watch".

    talk to a random community manager and then think again.

    i am sad to tell you that this is the age we are living in now.
  • Skamberin
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    Skamberin polycounter lvl 7
    iconoplast wrote: »
    *stuff*
    It's not a contest really, and telling people how they should feel and rate their own experiences with harassment because you think someone else had it worse is pretty shitty tbh.

    I've gotten detailed death threats in person, do I get a medal?

    Also, does the reason behind why you get them matter? Getting them over anything is stupid and childish.

    Let's also not forget that, this is the internet, nomatter how much you don't want it to be, it can be a terribly awful place, if you placed your full name and address out at ANY point during your time online, you can bet your ass people can find it.
    Want to get an audience? you bet your ass people will simply tell you they want you to die.

    Heck, how about simply playing a game online and getting SWAT called on you which is worse than death threats because the police are literally there and could take any movement as a hostile gesture and shoot you [ame="

    Here, another one talking about the experience of being swatted, which put his wife and children at risk.
    [ame=" Aftermath[/ame]
    The internet is filled with shitty people, expect shitty behavior and take precautions and you'll have a better time.
  • iconoplast
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    iconoplast polycounter lvl 7
    Goeddy wrote: »
    talk to a random community manager and then think again.

    i am sad to tell you that this is the age we are living in now.
    Community managers do get threats, but I've yet to see one state that they've had ones that include their home address or any other personal data. If you've got any evidence to the contrary, I'd genuinely love to see it. In the meantime, I'll direct you to this.
  • Skamberin
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    Skamberin polycounter lvl 7
    iconoplast wrote: »
    Community managers do get threats, but I've yet to see one state that they've had ones that include their home address or any other personal data. If you've got any evidence to the contrary, I'd genuinely love to see it. In the meantime, I'll direct you to this.

    That's his way of handling it, there is no reason Anita shouldn't handle it the same way. Thinking that it's easier to grow thick skin cause you're straight, white or a man is extremely disgusting to be honest.

    Also most people don't announce to the world they are being harassed online as that is pretty much giving the harasser what they want, they block, report and move on.
  • Aabel
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    Aabel polycounter lvl 3
    Getting SWAT teams called down on you is probably the worst gaming related harassment I have heard of. The potential for carnage is absolutely terrifying.
  • iconoplast
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    iconoplast polycounter lvl 7
    Skamberin wrote: »
    It's not a contest really, and telling people how they should feel and rate their own experiences with harassment because you think someone else had it worse is pretty shitty tbh.

    I've gotten detailed death threats in person, do I get a medal?
    I'm not trying to make it a contest, I'm just pointing out that it's not fair to tell people who have had really detailed threats to brush it off because someone was rude to you in voicechat or the like so it's totally the same. I think it's fair for me to say that threats that genuinely call for police/FBI/etc. investigation are a bigger deal than random people who have no idea who you are saying random things. And I think it's fair to point out that it's even a bigger deal when someone threatens to use automatic weapons and pipe bombs to eradicate as many people as possible that simply want to listen to a person talk. (Last I checked, that one is called terrorism.)

    I'm sorry to hear that you've had to deal with death threats, especially in person. I imagine it's a lot harder to get away from it in that circumstance. If you want a medal, though, I'll totally make you one.

    Also, just for the record, you don't have to post any personal info online to be found. Hell, if you've ever registered to vote in the US your address is public record unless you're lucky enough to live in one of the very few states that allows you to anonymize it. Most of the states that do allow that also require proof that you've already been physically harmed to be allowed to use it, too.

    EDIT: For everyone's sake, I'm going to do my best to leave this thread alone now. I'm happy to debate, but there are far too many ways this is about to go very wrong. If anyone does want a discussion/debate on the topic(s) presented here, I'm happy to engage privately.
  • Skamberin
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    Skamberin polycounter lvl 7
    Of course, the severity of the threat changes on that basis, but the initial feeling is equally harrowing for most, unless they've grown thick skin.

    And yeah it was pretty messed up, but the guy threatening me was slightly drunk, so it just made me very uncomfortable and mad, he was also a twig, so any scare didn't last long :P

    But yeah you should always notify authorities and the fact that personal info is so easily available online is kind of scary :/ is there no way to ask for it to be hidden in the US? Edit: nvm, answered in above posts. Never get used the how much states are like countries in the US.
  • Ferg
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    Ferg polycounter lvl 11
    Wow. Just... wow. This thread.

    *******************************************
    A NOTE TO THE MEN IN THIS THREAD SUGGESTING THE WOMEN IN QUESTION ARE OVERREACTING:

    Trying to advise women on how to handle threats of physical violence by giving examples of how you or other men handle them is, at best, ignorant and useless. You do not understand what you are talking about.
    *******************************************

    /me exits thread
  • martinszeme
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    martinszeme polycounter lvl 8
    I go away for couple of hours come back and this thread goes mental. 104583-Community-Troy-pizza-screaming-Ng7R.gif
  • repete
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    repete polycounter lvl 4
    This is so fucking dumb I get a headache

    headache.gif?w=720

    Oh how far we have evolved as a retarded race :poly122:
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 13
    The IGDA and ESA has spoken out against this harrasment, Anita was presented an award at last years GDC. It's pretty obvious what direction the overall industry is going.
  • Zocky
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    Zocky polycounter lvl 7
    Hm ok, this is rather touchy subject it seems. I'll probably end up sounding like a dick, but here's my view on this subject.

    Basically, this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee8RgbS9ESE

    As the girl says, it is my impression that Anita at times just assumes a whole lot of things and accuse us players of so many things, in rather harsh, very impolite ways. I think this may be source of many problems too.

    Now, don't get me wrong. She does have some points, many players do act like dicks, games are being seriously oversexualized and stuff, sure. And she's right to point this out.

    The problem is just how she does it. She's not try to be objective at all, she's, at least in some vids, very subjective. It almost sounds like if you play game because you like to see girls with big tits, you are a horrible monster.

    I think we should all aproach the subject of women in game industry more scientific and objective, and leave emotions out. If she thinks (and maybe rightfully so) that games are casting bad image onto women, she shouldn't accuse players and devs left and right like there's no end tomorrow, and have a deep, objective talk.

    Like, look, these are problems, here's proof this and that. So obbviously this indeed is problem. Now lets talk what can we do to solve this problem, to make games more female friendly.

    There are always dicks in gaming, probably partly because many players are just in those years. But even then, i think everything, including some of the reactions she gets, wouldn't be so bad, if she approaches subject more objectively (and much less offensive) and understand both male and female players and what each of them wants.

    Again, don't get me wrong, of course those things she gets are really really wrong, but i'm saying saying that i can sort of understand that her very negative attitude against many players can provoke even more negative reaction. You know, fight fire with fire...or fight fire with nukes in this case, so to speak.

    I mean, it's like Richard dawkings. I am atheist and i do have roughly similar views, but man oh man, he's sometimes so freakin aggresive even i have problems with him, let alone the other side....
  • HitmonInfinity
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    HitmonInfinity polycounter lvl 6
    Can we just skip the chatter and jump to memes and gifs?
    ka46ax1dlhmlutishv02.jpg

    No? Ok, fine. I tried.
  • RexM
    I don't think there is any reason to dumb down the conversation and perpetuate pointless stereotypes, HitmonInfinity.
  • HitmonInfinity
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    HitmonInfinity polycounter lvl 6
    I do feel bad for the dude that meme came from. I'm sure he's a nice guy.

    But poking fun at the stupidity of the people making death threats isn't dumbing down the conversation... endlessly arguing in circles is though.
  • Swizzle
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    Swizzle polycounter lvl 9
    Sweet Jesus, this thread is a Who's Who of people to avoid at all costs when trying to have a conversation about things that are actually important.

    Fuckin' hell.
  • technokill
    sMTFbcZ.jpg

    Nothing much else to say.
  • Skamberin
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    Skamberin polycounter lvl 7
    I thought the discussion was going well and being civil after Linkov apologized :(

    I guess it wasn't.

    And here come the 1-pic stereotypes that completely misrepresents both sides...
  • linkov
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    linkov polycounter lvl 8
    Swizzle wrote: »
    Sweet Jesus, this thread is a Who's Who of people to avoid at all costs when trying to have a conversation about things that are actually important.

    Fuckin' hell.

    since I'm the only appointed jerk in this thread, why don't you say it - hey linkov, I'm never having a conversation with you! :P
  • Skamberin
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    Skamberin polycounter lvl 7
    I think Swizzle just meant he wont be talking about this specific issue with specific people, I'm pretty sure Swizzle is smart enough to separate internet opinions from the actual person Linkov :S
  • Leinad
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    Leinad polycounter lvl 4
    Swizzle wrote: »
    Sweet Jesus, this thread is a Who's Who of people to avoid at all costs when trying to have a conversation about things that are actually important.

    Fuckin' hell.

    And yet this statement did very little to keep it civil. Making such a broad indirect generalization based on miscommunication in this thread does very little to show your eagerness to have a conversation. Often times it's most important to have said conversation with people you disagree with. If we all lived and associated within our own bubble there would be little room for personal growth.

    I haven't seen anyone having fundamental disagreements in this thread. Most of the arguments have been based on semantics/poor delivery, and emotions.
  • Goeddy
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    Goeddy polycounter lvl 6
    Swizzle wrote: »
    Sweet Jesus, this thread is a Who's Who of people to avoid at all costs when trying to have a conversation about things that are actually important.

    Fuckin' hell.

    its politics on polycount... you knew it had to end ugly sooner or later.
  • HitmonInfinity
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    HitmonInfinity polycounter lvl 6
    I totally understand why Polycount wants to discuss important things. I apologize if that image derailed the topic in any way, because that is never my intention. However, as great as the PC community is, this is still the internet, and I truly believe that an online forum is never the best place to discuss "things that are actually important." I highly doubt anyone is going to be convinced enough to change their opinion because of this thread. A hot topic like this pops up, and every time (again, because the internet) people jump in, vomit their opinion, then dissect any post that doesn't line up with that opinion. I really hate seeing this time and time again. My only intention was to inject some humor, something I think an online forum is great for.
  • marks
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    marks polycounter lvl 9
    Goeddy wrote: »
    its politics... you knew it had to end ugly sooner or later.

    Fixed.
  • linkov
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    linkov polycounter lvl 8
    Skamberin wrote: »
    I think Swizzle just meant he wont be talking about this specific issue with specific people, I'm pretty sure Swizzle is smart enough to separate internet opinions from the actual person Linkov :S

    nah, I'm just being pissed at myself for replying in this thread to begin with. I should have known better... Here in Russia we're not used to all this political corectness. Now I'm feeling bad because I think that all these people for whom I have great respect, consider me as 'baddie'. self pity doesn't suit me either. I'm gonna go, do some other things. polite talks is not for me I guess.
  • heyeye
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    heyeye polycounter lvl 5
    Way late to this party, but just thought I'd provoke some more thought on a broader topic.


    It's going to be very interesting to see how internet culture develops in the next 5 or so years with this increase in the 'sticks and stones'(SWAT, DDOS, etc) rather than the usual unfriendly word exchange.

    I really see anonymity as the main issue here. As soon as someone becomes an individual on the internet, they essentially separate themselves from the collective. That separation may be favorable in their own community, but what happens when you step into other communities?
    I think Anita is doing just that, and it's a very intriguing roller coaster we are witnessing.

    I believe the most important issue coming up will be how can the internet come to a balance with anonymity, yet consequences for an individual's actions.
  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 6
    I believe this is kind of what @linkov talks about.
    [ame=" Sarkeesian vs Marilyn Manson - YouTube[/ame]
  • weee
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    weee polycounter lvl 3
    linkov wrote: »
    nah, I'm just being pissed at myself for replying in this thread to begin with. I should have known better... Here in Russia we're not used to all this political corectness. Now I'm feeling bad because I think that all these people for whom I have great respect, consider me as 'baddie'. self pity doesn't suit me either. I'm gonna go, do some other things. polite talks is not for me I guess.

    dude, Russia's got its very own political correctness in a 'right' way, maybe you are not aware of it just because you live in it and possibly enjoying it? just saying, take it easy.
  • valuemeal
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    valuemeal polycounter lvl 5
    Large question fellows, what does this have to do with games and game based content?
    I love tropes as much as the next guy, but what does this have to do with the development of games itself.

    If you ask me this seems to me more of "fan gate" if you as me, we need to be focused on fellows such.

    The Tropes lady doesn't deserve this, but too many fellows are focused on her and not the actual games themselves.
  • Makkon
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    Makkon greentooth
    linkov: no worries, man, I don't hold a grudge, and I think you're an amazing artist. On polycount, the culture typically goes that what happens in General Discussion, stays in General Discussion.


    PyrZern, did you seriously just link to Amazing Atheist?
    I'm out...
  • Jesse Moody
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    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 10
    My issue with all this is that this isn't just in games. It is everything. The guys that are called out for this are assholes plain and simple. The death threats are fucking stupid on so many levels and perhaps if people actually received real punishments for these (they may have, i try not to follow this shit) then maybe, just maybe a small amount of them will come down.

    I know every time we patch a gun or change something the fucking internet explodes and they want our designers head on a pike so they can skull fuck it at a moments notice. How is that any different? It is threats of violence over something that should never breed that behavior.

    I see Anitas points on things and then I also think this is her thing and this is all she does. I def believe a better method or way of doing this could be found but what do I know in the end.

    Like I said above, this isn't just in games. It is a major cultural issue. I saw it in the military, sports and other things I have been a part of in the past. So what is the solution? Fuck if I know.
  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 6
    Makkon wrote: »
    linkov: no worries, man, I don't hold a grudge, and I think you're an amazing artist. On polycount, the culture typically goes that what happens in General Discussion, stays in General Discussion.


    PyrZern, did you seriously just link to Amazing Atheist?
    I'm out...

    I just did... why O o'
  • Kurt Russell Fan Club
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    Kurt Russell Fan Club polycounter lvl 6
    I think he said that because Amazing Atheist is a horrible scumbag http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/TheAmazingAtheist
  • ZacD
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    ZacD interpolator
    Being an asshole doesn't make someone wrong.
  • chiniara
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    chiniara polycounter lvl 7
    ZacD wrote: »
    Being an asshole doesn't make someone wrong.

    Thanks ZacD, that's exactly what i was going to post.
  • Kurt Russell Fan Club
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    Kurt Russell Fan Club polycounter lvl 6
    No, it doesn't . A stopped clock is correct twice per day. That makes it right more often than most clocks. But it's also a shitty timekeeping device.

    His videos are worthless because he is pushing a skeezy agenda. If you want to know how close you are to a legitimate cause, he's good to follow if and only if your cause is being a sexist shit.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir polycounter
    I think he said that because Amazing Atheist is a horrible scumbag http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/TheAmazingAtheist
    Hehe my biggest problem with the linked video, was that it wasn't an actual debate between Anita and Manson.

    Because i shit you not, Manson is ridiculously intelligent and articulate and i'm willing to bet he could out-debate her with ease.
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