Tropes in Videogames

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  • poopinmymouth
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    If anything, sexism in advertising in the US is worse now than it was in the 70s. This woman has made her life studies about sexism in advertising. It's a great watch but I'm sure several of you (men of course, curious the women of the thread have expressed agreement) will accuse her too of being angry and reactionary.

    [ame=" Us Softly 4 (2010) - 1/2 - YouTube[/ame]
  • eld
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    ...and when someone suggests this is because of a systematic objectification of women by a largely straight male dominated industry, people disagree. It's really ludicrous, and ignorant, to be honest. It shows that you haven't stopped to think about the way women have been portrayed in games, movies, and comics in any way, other than to stare.

    The attraction to the female body is not going to go away anytime soon, and deep inside the reptile brain we'll be objectifying bodies wherever we go, but much like everything else that is bad but essentially a core of what it is to be human, we don't let it get to us. People are people.

    We reach equality by objectifying both sexes, just look at the recent bioware games, where we have the ideal man or woman for the player.

    Personally I'm fine with that, I enjoy experiencing things, I like murdering people in games, I like seeing attractive people, but I don't find any joy in treating any person any less than human, because I was raised and grew up with those standards.


    Isn't this fundamentally an issue that starts at how someone is raised or what experiences he/she gains? Removing any "sexism" in games, movies or ads will not make the reptile brain go away, people were way beyond sexist back in the olde days.
  • System
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    eld wrote: »
    Isn't this fundamentally an issue that starts at how someone is raised or what experiences he/she gains? Removing any "sexism" in games, movies or ads will not make the reptile brain go away, people were way beyond sexist back in the olde days.

    Upon reading that I can't help but think that is true, you rarely say something i dont agree with eld <3
  • Zwebbie
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    It's a great watch but I'm sure several of you (men of course, curious the women of the thread have expressed agreement) will accuse her too of being angry and reactionary.
    Again, you're immediately assuming the worst of men, Poop. I, for one, thought that was a very good presentation and it's leagues better than the ones you started this thread with (which were also interesting, despite flawed in ways). For one thing, Kilbourne never tries to create a gender dichotomy. Most of her examples, I think, are from women's magazines, so with a female audience in mind.

    Feminist Frequency's argument is that men are trying to keep women down. Kilbourne's argument is that the media aren't depicting people responsibly. Those are way different, and it's only the first one I have issues with.

    What is a shame is that Jean Kilbourne only shortly mentions the depiction of men in media. It's partially the same problem as with women, namely that the media act irresponsibly and give a false and undesirable sense of normalcy; in this case that males ought to be violent. But I think it's just as big a problem. Recall the video about Lego you posted in the Kara thread; the genders got divided and girls ended up with 'Friendship' and boys with several lines focusing on battling. Which of the two ended up with the less respectful treatment?
  • Ganemi
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    pior wrote: »
    Fearian - that's exactly his point tho! He's doing the naked hero dick joke to show how pointless the whole argument is in the first place. That is to say : of course, female fantasy warriors in chain bikinis don't make any kind of sense! And it would't make any more sense to have Marcus Fenix run around in a jockstrap. The point of pushing the joke further is to show how ridiculous the argument is in the first place ...

    I think he is a very clever guy, using sarcastic humour very well !
    You know, I use that tactic while sometimes debating hyper conservatives, but I still feel like it's not always the magic bullet. The reason this tactic often works with people who are incredibly conservative is that they do things that are directly opposed to the rules they're trying to impose on everyone else.

    My favorite example of hyper conservatives being insane are the bacha bazi boys in the east, and similar boys elswhere:

    Rape = punishable by stoning to death.
    Not being able to prove you were raped = shameful = punishable by stoning to death. (honor killing)
    Gay sex = punishable by stoning to death.
    Wealthy elite warlords raping little boys at parties, rather than sleeping with girls to protect their chastity = high social status.

    Back to my original point. The problem with using that argumentative tactic against women thinking they should be objectified less in games is that they are, and very, very much so. That said, creating a game where women were all extremely sexually toned down would be incredibly hard to believe, and very distracting. I mean, face it, women want to get laid, too. That's why they don't wear awful clothing, most of the time.
    Zwebbie wrote: »
    I find it problematic that people are trying to turn this into a male vs. female thing, as if every straight man is only trying to dehumanise the other sex. I'll have you know that I, too, feel offended every time a deodorant commercial comes up, because its marketers assume that I'll love something as long as it's associated with breasts. The media act as if we straight men are incredibly shallow and small of focus, and you seem to be believing them.

    Hot damn, tits! I need to find some next Friday, to flick with my middle finger. Boioioioing!!!!
  • Alberto Rdrgz
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    eld wrote: »
    The attraction to the female body is not going to go away anytime soon, and deep inside the reptile brain we'll be objectifying bodies wherever we go, but much like everything else that is bad but essentially a core of what it is to be human, we don't let it get to us. People are people.

    We reach equality by objectifying both sexes, just look at the recent bioware games, where we have the ideal man or woman for the player.


    I think the issue here is that we think we have to REACH a certain point or intellectual agreement. We don't, we just have drop the act, but that's nearly impossible, nowadays.

    Sex is the major theme in Ads these days. So just like these ads are making people into shop-aholics, so then, equally they turn people into sex-aholics (both sexes becoming the prey, if you will).

    So the issue then becomes more intricate, when it's complicated (both preys blaming each other) rather than simplifying it.

    Sex is equal to drugs these days. It's hard to kick, as a desire.
    Sex is best when it happens by itself (with you and your partner) not when one asks the other.
  • Bigjohn
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    fearian wrote: »
    Largely speaking, the Half Naked male hero with a ripped body and perfect hair is not in the game to appeal to women. He's in the game for the dudes sake, to see how cool and badass he is. Ripped half naked badasses are ripped half naked badasses, because that's who we want to be when we save the world. Meanwhile most half naked women, are there to look hawt for men.

    True, but we think that because we're seeing it from a man's perspective. Couldn't you say the exact same thing if you were a woman? That the chainmail-bikini elf is there to look like a badass woman because that's who you (as a woman) want to be when you save the world, and the half-naked ripped badass man is just eye-candy?

    I think the bottom line is, everyone wants to look hot while kicking ass. I don't see why this would be different for women.
  • e-freak
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    [ame=" IMPROVEMENT IS MASTURBATION - YouTube[/ame]

    point is: men are just as much targeted by "you have to look like this" or "you have to own this". and women will always compare men to advertisment figures just the same. it only becomes a problem if a) you can only see other people in comparison to advertisment or b) you can't get over your self not looking like one of the poster-kids. both is not a systematic failure, it's ones own individual upbringing that will change that - male or female.
  • System
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    Bigjohn wrote: »
    I think the bottom line is, everyone wants to look hot while kicking ass. I don't see why this would be different for women.

    I think there was something said along those lines in one of the gamesindustry mentor things? I cant remember.

    But the problem with that line of thought bigjohn is that youre still inside the box with that comment, youre not questioning the definition of "hot". Not that i'm going to argue that being a fat slob is attractive...
  • 3DFM
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    She's hot.
  • arshlevon
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    just an observation here, its seems pretty apparent that regardless of how much relevant, true, noteworthy information you have to present about your argument, it is 100% worthless if you say one derogatory statement toward your opposition. i could write a 5 pages of how awesome Gloria Steinem is, but if say i like boobies at the very end it completely invalidates everything i just said. its sad really that personal pride and getting all butt hurt will get in the way of any real conversation about topics such as this ever being had. What happens is one side expressing a concern, this concern makes the other side feel as though they are being accused of being a bad person and now they get defensive, then the name calling starts. i have a 3 year old, its a lot like watching him fight over who plays with the train next.

    as a straight man i have to realistically say and admit i have no problem with half naked women being plastered everywhere, and i never will. never. maybe if i have a daughter, but unless its her i probably still wont. I also don't care if men are naked selling something, as an artist i actually find the male form more interesting but that's another topic. it's not the point. the point is i see a bunch of men getting all up in arms about a topic i KNOW they don't give one shit about only because they think they are being made out as the bad guy. look, its not about men doing and feeling the things men do being bad, wrong or unnatural. its about equality , fairness, and respect.

    please stop pretending you have anything worth while to say about woman's rights and issues, you don't. you have no say at all at what you personally think they should feel, that's the problem. they don't need to chill out, or just accept it. I didn't choose to be a straight white male, i just was and for me to believe i don't have it better, or have an advantage over every other demographic of human is ignorant.

    but no one likes the finger pointed at them, even the privileged. i have to realize that even if i don't care about woman's rights, doesn't mean they are not entitled to them, and that if women were treated fairly it would not change my life at all. all my favorite movies would still be my favorite movies, all my favorite restaurants, it doesn't threaten my life at all. so whats the problem with it? whats the opposition? seems like the most that will change in mens lives if women were treated equally is that there would be less women calling men pigs and assholes, and that seems to be the real problem men are having with any of this.
  • paulsvoboda
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    I went ahead and watched all the videos she's done and, few problems aside, I agree with almost everything she says. The obvious question then to ask is how to do you proceed in bringing about some form of change to the way things are? In one of her videos on BitTorrent/Wikipedia she argues that things are the way they are because men produce most of the content online. Is this because there aren't enough women to produce this content? It seems like a problem which is inherently cyclical/self fulfilling, where women and men are defined into these roles by the media, tradition, religion, etc. which leads us to assuming those roles unfortunately placing a significant amount of men in a place where they are the providers of media, therefore further defining women into these roles.
    Basically, my question is, what is the solution for the problem? Is it for men to start writing better roles for women in movies (I sincerely think there are a lot of people trying but according to her still getting it wrong), or for men and women to encourage more women to get involved in media, or something else entirely?
    On a side note, I read an article written by a straight man a while back in response to a Huggies ad about being a stay at home dad and how that role is still stereotyped and seen as weak, inferior, etc. by the media and the general public.
  • Justin Meisse
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    I don't see anything in the industry that is restricting diversity in hiring. It's societal mores that have existed that says girls don't go into tech. I see this changing, when I was growing up using a computer was considered weird and nerdy but now a computer & internet connection is considered as essential as water and electricity.
  • Ferg
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    When I went to college (I went to ultra-nerd school: Digipen), the guy/girl ratio was 10/1 at best in my program. The year after I graduated, the freshman male/female ratio was almost 50/50. We may see a shift away from the male gaze in media sooner than we think.
  • poopinmymouth
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    ...snip....Is this because there aren't enough women to produce this content? It seems like a problem which is inherently cyclical/self fulfilling, where women and men are defined into these roles by the media, tradition, religion, etc. which leads us to assuming those roles unfortunately placing a significant amount of men in a place where they are the providers of media, therefore further defining women into these roles.
    Basically, my question is, what is the solution for the problem? Is it for men to start writing better roles for women in movies (I sincerely think there are a lot of people trying but according to her still getting it wrong), or for men and women to encourage more women to get involved in media, or something else entirely?..snip...

    Obviously it's one thing to notice a glaring problem, and another to have a good solution. I can see this glaring problem, but I don't know enough about psychology or sociology to claim a perfect answer. I do think you hit the nail on the head at the end. Guys need to start being more aware of the content they create, currently holding the majority of creative positions in advertisments/movies/comics/games/magazines and that should naturally result in a more friendly atmosphere for women to go into and succeed in these fields.
  • pseudoBug
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    It's a great watch but I'm sure several of you (men of course, curious the women of the thread have expressed agreement) will accuse her too of being angry and reactionary.


    Sorry Poop, I'm not sure how attitudes like this are anything other than biased and damaging in and of themselves.

    You seem to be inferring that anyone who reacted negatively to a woman who makes obvious assumptions and touts examples that in reality work against her(read the Big Barda "Death of the New Gods" comic.)

    You also seem to be indicating that you know that the only negative reactions were male, and thereby imply that there are no females that would react negatively in the same manner. I know women who would "puke"(to use the woman in the vids terms) at the statements this woman makes, and her lack of interest in taking the small amount of effort it takes double check her own references.

    Why is it that a woman this passionate about her cause can't actually research and provide actual examples that she herself has even bothered to read? Why is it that this doesn't bother you? I react negatively to anyone who claims to be a proponent of some type of change, claiming to be "in the know" about important issues, while simultaneously insulting another group, and yet simply makes videos while parroting things she hasn't bothered to double check.

    Why shouldn't we expect people to react negatively to someone who takes the time to stand behind an issue with such ferocity, yet who doesn't bother to take the time to even understand the very reference she cites?

    I do find it interesting that your reaction to others reactions, seems to be right in line with the woman's video you first posted. Basically sounds like- "If you don't see it exactly the way I do, you're probably a chauvinist, and likely part of the problem." "Women are the only ones who don't react negatively."

    I haven't really noticed anyone in this thread stating that there are no problems in society or media that negatively effect women. Simply many who see that this one woman happens to have an inability to speak in an unbiased, and sexist manner herself.

    Also wanted to say that just in case of misunderstanding, I never meant any of my words in my rant to be an attack on you, or anyone else personally, my responses were solely directed at responding to the statements in the vid. I'm pretty sure that I kept it impersonal, but just in case.
  • poopinmymouth
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    I don't see anything in the industry that is restricting diversity in hiring. It's societal mores that have existed that says girls don't go into tech. I see this changing, when I was growing up using a computer was considered weird and nerdy but now a computer & internet connection is considered as essential as water and electricity.

    Maybe you've worked at more egalitarian companies than me, but I can remember highly restrictive atmospheres at every company I've worked at toward women. I didn't even feel comfortable being openly gay at any of my past game studios till CCP for fear of being restricted out of the boys club where good reputation and promotions/raises come from.

    In fact I can remember a specific company that you and I both worked at that shall go unnamed where a very talented female character artist was practically shut out of any meaningful meetings or decision making purely because she was female. Language that left no room for any confusion as to why, was used. Her gender in specific was referenced.

    I can believe you've never noticed it (and why would you, as a man you'd never face it) but to suggest there is no restrictions toward women in game hiring is simply absurd.

    Just think of it this way. I've personally fucked several male polycounters but I'll never have someone mentally thinking my career, salary or position (till maybe this admission) was related to my sexuality or appearance. The reverse is self-evidently false. Any attractive woman is naturally assumed to have at the very least flirted her way into the hire, if not outright slept into it. Even when capable, they are considered "very good... for a girl" etc etc. Maybe not consciously, but women are absolutely treated differently by their male co-workers, including raises and hires.
  • poopinmymouth
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    pseudoBug wrote: »
    Why is it that a woman this passionate about her cause can't actually research and provide actual examples that she herself has even bothered to read? Why is it that this doesn't bother you? I react negatively to anyone who claims to be a proponent of some type of change, claiming to be "in the know" about important issues, while simultaneously insulting another group, and yet simply makes videos while parroting things she hasn't bothered to double check.

    What are you talking about? She references multiple studies, authors, books, and research, by name even. If you go to the actual website, www.feministfrequency.com the links for each video are included.

    Conversely, we have in this thread, men who have never even given a passing thought to these subjects, that within 5 minutes of being aware of them, come into the thread to post their thoughts at how it's all rubbish and made up her head.

    Feminist theory is an actual field. Women (and men) have spent their entire lives researching these subjects. That women are treated differently and most often more negatively than men in popular culture is simply inarguable, with mountains of research behind it. I'm not going to claim everything she's said is 100% right, but she has far more legitimate points than the majority of people in this thread are giving credit for, who are largely handwaving it all away.

    People (who were male) actually did say that the original author was just angry and reactionary. How is that insulting? it's a fact, I can go back and quote them for you. If it was worded in such a way that you think I was implying *all* men, then I apologize. I did not mean it that way.
  • Bigjohn
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    That hasn't been my experience. Although I'm sure it does happen.

    But what I've seen is exactly the opposite. It's almost like a meme now. We talk about people who also ran for the job that someone just got, and then the joke ultimately comes up "And if one of those was a girl, you'd be fucked". Meaning we'd hire a girl before a guy. And this isn't some weird sexual thing, it's just that we sincerely want more diversity. As to someone being gay... that's kinda hard to tell unless they put that on their resume, but I can't imagine who would do that.

    The one thing I did notice is a bit of age discrimination though.
  • poopinmymouth
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    Bigjohn wrote: »
    That hasn't been my experience. Although I'm sure it does happen.

    But what I've seen is exactly the opposite. It's almost like a meme now. We talk about people who also ran for the job that someone just got, and then the joke ultimately comes up "And if one of those was a girl, you'd be fucked". Meaning we'd hire a girl before a guy. And this isn't some weird sexual thing, it's just that we sincerely want more diversity. As to someone being gay... that's kinda hard to tell unless they put that on their resume, but I can't imagine who would do that.

    The one thing I did notice is a bit of age discrimination though.

    You say, that hasn't been your experience. I'm curious, where would you have noticed it? Other than if you are the actual person hiring, and have self examined if you'd not hire a woman, when would someone ever confide in you their bias? "Oh it's a good thing you don't have boobs, mate, or we wouldn't have hired you."

    And you're right, I don't have "I'm gay" at the top of my resume in pink sparkle letters (though that's tempting now that I think of it), but some people could possibly guess in person, or I could reference my home life (my husband, etc) in an interview, but I was more referencing promotions within companies, once you become known as gay as an employee, it could, in some situations, limit your promotions and raises based on the prejudices of those above you. It might not have been true in any of my studios, but I had a legitimate fear to worry that it might have, so I instead stayed silent, and even outright lied a few times, just so it wouldn't hinder my career.
  • Bigjohn
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    I am in charge of hiring (for positions that are under me), so I can safely say that I will personally show no discrimination against women. That said, I sadly haven't run across an application from a woman that I actually did want to hire. But that's 100% just their portfolio, and the fact that there are so few women applying in general, and that we only have like 3 character people in general. Maybe it's because I'm in charge of characters. But I see more women applying for environment positions.

    As to the other departments, I'm telling you, it's almost a meme now. We all tell one another all the time how we wish more women would apply. Often when we hire someone new, after they get comfortable enough to joke around with the rest of us, the subject often comes up of other people who also applied for that job. The regular joke now is that, after telling him he had the best portfolio, someone throws in "And if a girl had applied, you would have been fucked". Of course, it's just a joke. But it has some truth in it.
  • Justin Meisse
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    You felt uncomfortable at a studio that had an openly gay office manager that wasn't afraid to bring his husband to company gatherings?

    I don't know about this incident you described, it happened before my time there but it seems like you distort the facts to suit your needs. Like the time you mentioned how everyone in the game industry is white upper class but I knew for a fact that you worked with plenty of people that grew up poor at "the studio that shall not be named".

    Also, I'm disabled and it's still generally socially acceptable to make fun of me, Especially since I fall down without warning - I remember falling down so hard I split my scalp open and being helped up by a group of laughing people, I needed 13 staples. So suggesting that I'm some sort of sheltered member of the privileged class is pretty shitty.
  • poopinmymouth
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    You felt uncomfortable at a studio that had an openly gay office manager that wasn't afraid to bring his husband to company gatherings?

    I don't know about this incident you described, it happened before my time there but it seems like you distort the facts to suit your needs. Like the time you mentioned how everyone in the game industry is white upper class but I knew for a fact that you worked with plenty of people that grew up poor at "the studio that shall not be named".

    I'm sure you have a quote for that, seeing as I never made that claim. (that *everyone* in the game industry is white and upper class, who is making up things to suit their argument now?) That's simply ridiculous. I have implied that the game industry as a whole is *largely* drawn from middle and upper class white households, and looking around any western studio can easily confirm my claim.

    And, this goes back to privilege. Yes I felt uncomfortable there, and like I said, it might not have been reasonable, but I had no way of knowing, and you certainly don't know what it's like to have to weigh that decision in your career to lecture me on if it was a legitimate worry or not.
  • pseudoBug
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    What are you talking about?
    Big Barda. Please read it. It's a reference which she cites, that actually does not support the WIR trope, but actually the opposite.

    My post here describes it with actual pages from the comic, but everyone should read it themselves. http://www.polycount.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1540538&postcount=34

    She admits fully that she's never read the green lantern issue she quotes in the vid.

    Regurgitation. A person in a vid like this who does not bother to take the time to check their own references is obviously biased or simply lazy, because they believe that whoever they got they references from in the first place is infallible. They are also extremely damaging to their own cause.
    She references multiple studies, authors, books, and research, by name even. If you go to the actual website, www.feministfrequency.com the links for each video are included.

    Been there, and I found her statements even more biased and off base than the vids themselves. I quoted her site directly at the end of my long post where I address her statements in the video.

    There is a huge difference between citing references, copy/pasting them onto your website or youtube channel, and actually reading, understanding, and making sure your references are actually what you purport them to be.


    Conversely, we have in this thread, men who have never even given a passing thought to these subjects, that within 5 minutes of being aware of them, come into the thread to post their thoughts at how it's all rubbish and made up her head.

    How can you come to a conclusion that there are men here who've never given it a passing thought? How does one know others minds and thoughts with absolute certainty?

    I've seen a lot of posts saying that disparity in treatment of females vs males does exist, but that these very same people find the woman's methods and attitude offensive and biased. Maybe I didn't read every single post myself. But I didn't see any posts that said -"all rubbish and made up her head." "No such thing as discrimination. Never."
    People (who were male) actually did say that the original author was just angry and reactionary. How is that insulting? it's a fact, I can go back and quote them for you. If it was worded in such a way that you think I was implying *all* men, then I apologize. I did not mean it that way
    I didn't see you implying "all men". What you DID say, was:
    It's a great watch but I'm sure several of you (men of course, curious the women of the thread have expressed agreement) will accuse her too of being angry and reactionary.

    Which implies that only men are the only ones who would react negatively. You saw no women react negatively, thus anyone who reacts negatively is automatically male, meaning anyone who reacts negatively is obviously a chauvinist, and is incapable of being objective.

    You state that you are sure that several of the people commenting will accuse her of being angry and reactionary as well, cementing the idea that anyone who claims that the first women is simply an angry reactionary are simply biased against women. Do you not realize how sexist this statement is?
  • ZacD
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    One thing bothered me about the Mystical Pregnancy she hammers Startrek Next generation for quite a while, but I believe it is normally one of the least sexiest, anti-racist, pro-equality show out there. I wish she spent more time pointing out when shows do stuff right.
  • poopinmymouth
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    pseudoBug wrote: »
    Big Barda. Please read it. It's a reference which she cites, that actually does not support the WIR trope, but actually the opposite.

    My post here describes it with actual pages from the comic, but everyone should read it themselves. http://www.polycount.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1540538&postcount=34

    She admits fully that she's never read the green lantern issue she quotes in the vid.


    There is a huge difference between citing references, copy/pasting them onto your website or youtube channel, and actually reading, understanding, and making sure your references are actually what you purport them to be.

    Which implies that only men are the only ones who would react negatively. You saw no women react negatively, thus anyone who reacts negatively is automatically male, meaning anyone who reacts negatively is obviously a chauvinist, and is incapable of being objective.

    You state that you are sure that several of the people commenting will accuse her of being angry and reactionary as well, cementing the idea that anyone who claims that the first women is simply an angry reactionary are simply biased against women. Do you not realize how sexist this statement is?

    You're right, and I apologize for the implication. (that anyone who disagrees is a chauvinist)

    As for the Big Barda, I see how her not reading the entirety of the source material lead her to using an inaccurate example, but I disagree that her points are largely poorly drawn or un referenced examples shoe horned in to make a point. It feels like you and several others try to find a single angle where it's wrong, and then use that as leverage to imply the entire trope is without merit.
  • Two Listen
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    People (who were male) actually did say that the original author was just angry and reactionary. How is that insulting? it's a fact, I can go back and quote them for you.

    I'd actually like you to do this, if you wouldn't mind. I just searched every page, and the only person who has used the word reactionary from what I can tell, is you. The only time the word shows up in another post is when they're quoting you.

    Every other post I can find might make mention of her having an axe to grind (truth), but usually also says something about agreeing that the underlying issue is there (though perhaps is not being represented as well as it could be in these videos, due to a near complete lack of discussion about viable alternatives and examples that exist, combined with some contradictory points such as the Big Barda thing).
  • poopinmymouth
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    Ok, sorry I misremembered, it was "sensationalist and angry" not reactionary. And "axe to grind" also implies anger or being reactionary, even if not stated directly.

    pior wrote: »
    Well I did watch two of her videos in their fullest, and in both cases she was being sensationalist, not making much point besides repeating herself over and over again, and ending up all angry and disrespectful all by herself. It just doesn't make me want to watch any more of these - just a matter of taste!
  • Two Listen
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    Ah, I see. Well it's definitely true that people did say that, and mention she had an axe to grind. But I don't think it's accurate to say that they said she was just angry and reactionary (sensationalist, what have you) and left it at that. There's pretty much always been another paragraph acknowledging that the problems and points as a whole are legitimate.

    I just find that these videos are not the best representation of those points. If each of these videos had another half, showing great examples of viable alternatives that have turned out great I think they'd be helping to resolve the problem a lot more.

    Oh, also, this was not in this thread but Earthquake seems to want it all in this one, so I'll respond to it here:
    I promise you, if you are a man, you will never fully understand the perspective of a woman. Thinking that you do, or that women experience the world exactly how you do, is called "male privilege" and this thread is full of it.

    This feels sexist in and of itself, honestly. I think you're making things too black and white, again focusing only on gender. And since there's no way to prove it definitively, I think it's a silly statement to make to begin with.

    I don't think that women experience the world exactly as I do, nor do I think that I necessarily understand the world from every woman's perspective. I do not think the world simply has two points of view, "male" and "female". I don't think every woman has the same experiences, I don't think every man does either.

    That being said, I do not think that because I'm packing man parts and my wife isn't, that we could not understand the world through eachothers eyes. I think sometimes, she may understand me better than I understand myself, and vice versa. I think girls are perfectly capable of seeing the world through a man's eyes, hell I think some men experience the world in the same way as some women - and vice versa. Just depends on the person.

    And that's the point, it depends on the PERSON, not the gender. Once we start viewing eachother as people rather than guy, girl, black, white, gay, straight, or crazyinbetweenthemall - then we're on the right track. But to simply throw your arms up in the air and say "There's no way I could really, fully understand things from your perspective because we're not the same gender", well that to me encourages one of two mentalities: Either "Why even try if it's not possible", or "I don't think it's possible so I'll take your word for it." Neither of which is productive.

    To me, the right mentality to have is simply to acknowledge that other people will have lived very different lives from you, and to try and take that into consideration. Whether or not they do that successfully I'm sure just depends on the individual.
  • Ikosan
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    [ame=" and the Disposable Male - YouTube[/ame] < Interesting 'argument' from the flip side of the coin (not really directly related to comic books but does have an interesting take on gender stereotypes for men)
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