Next generation to arrive in 2012

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  • Andreas
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    dr jekyll wrote: »
    Personally I could give a rat's ass bout "gameplay"... And I will definitley have to puke if I hear "another"
    gameplay before graphics post on a graphics oriented forum.

    1rst POST! :poly121:

    Uh really? Do you not think... playing games is what got us into games development in the first place?
  • Autocon
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    Snefer wrote: »
    Why would you think that? I think heavier shaders and postprocessing will be the "selling point" nothing people can point out specifically, but I think our rendering quality will increase ALOT, we dont really need that much more polys, its the shader, lighting and postprocessing etc that is lagging behind. Playing through uncharted I barely noticed any polies, so you guys are a good example of that ;) Looking at epics samaritan demo, if you would pull that down to 10% of the polycount you probably wouldnt notice it THAT much, and specially not during gameplay. Hopefully alot of that stuff will be under the hood aswell, so the production time dont increase AGAIN.

    And NO way the new consoles arrives in 2012.

    I went with tessellation because I think it would be the most visually striking change for your average consumer. Things like postprocessing/better shaders would go more un-noticed by your average wallmart shopper. I could be wrong here.

    And tessellation doesn't add enough striking visual difference to really warrant a new console.



    As for lighting, I honestly think its just because most studios dont have professional lighting artists hired to focus just on lighting. Really there are some games out there or small parts of games with great lighting, but most, most suck because of just bad lighting artists. And thats because you have your modeler doing the lighting instead of a real professional lighting artist.

    Im not saying modelers are bad lighting artists, nor am I saying that they shouldn't light things because hey I love doing lighting. But there absolutely is a huge difference between someone who went to school/self taught themselves how to model and someone who went to school to become a lighting artist.

    Having someone who's sole job is to focus on lighting will always net you better results as they are constantly working with the tools, they are learning tips and techniques to push it further and instead of worry about poly budgets, gameplay, frame rate. They are only focused on the lighting/color/mood/shader interaction.

    If you want better lighting, hire real lighting artists, great tech can make anything look good, but having a great artist behind that tech can make things look amazing.
  • Del
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    ~ One huge trend that happens everytime there's a new console out.

    A fuckton of studios Shut the Fuck down due to changeover costs and general development prices.
  • dr jekyll
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    Andreas wrote: »
    Uh really? Do you not think... playing games is what got us into games development in the first place?

    For me it was the Nvidia demo-ing of the final fantasy movie in "real time".
    And I saw the promise of a future art whose immersion level might some day rival cinema and thus become the predominant art form. ( a promise I feel is still constrained by the compromises imposed by current console economic concerns )

    Games are just the only game in town. Happily I have had a console since the magnavox Odyssey. So yeah I like squeezing one off just as much as the next guy.
    But still look forward to the revolution.

    And sadly I haven't found the game that has hit me as hard as the best film experiences.
  • Saman
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    dr jekyll wrote: »
    Personally I could give a rat's ass bout "gameplay"... And I will definitley have to puke if I hear "another"
    gameplay before graphics post on a graphics oriented forum.

    That just sounds like a pretty egocentric point of view to me. It's not about us artists, it's about the game. People play them because they're fun, not because they have great graphics. They could go and watch a movie instead if they want outstanding visuals.

    As for lighting; Better hardware = More lights = easier to achieve better lighting. Think of large levels which currently only supports a limited amount of lights until it f-s up. More lights would benefit in those cases.

    I read somewhere that the ps4 and 720 or loop or whatever will be out in 2014. I highly doubt they will release the consoles before any games are finished, they've only now just sent out devkits to a few companies. 2014 still sounds a bit too early though.

    Edit: @Dr jekyll: That wasn't an attack against you as a person, it was your comment that I criticised.
  • dr jekyll
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    Goraaz wrote: »
    That just sounds like a pretty egocentric point of view to me. It's not about us artists, it's about the game. People play them because they're fun, not because they have great graphics. They could go and watch a movie instead if they want outstanding visuals.

    As for lighting; Better hardware = More lights = easier to achieve better lighting. Think of large levels which currently only supports a limited amount of lights until it f-s up. More lights would benefit in those cases.

    I read somewhere that the ps4 and 720 or loop or whatever will be out in 2014. I highly doubt they will release the consoles before any games are finished, they've only now just sent out devkits to a few companies. 2014 still sounds a bit too early though.

    As much as I am ridiculed for being an Artist ( in my lifetime ) I think most artists rarely make "ego_centric" rants... My ego is about as withered, beaten and pathetic as they come.

    I'd say it is a rather art-centric comment.

    guilty.
  • dr jekyll
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    Dreamer wrote: »
    ~ One huge trend that happens everytime there's a new console out.

    A fuckton of studios Shut the Fuck down due to changeover costs and general development prices.


    What would have to change ( regarding graphics )
    That this iteration would cause to cost extra?
    Would your team not be up to it?
  • Del
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    dr jekyll wrote: »
    What would have to change ( regarding graphics )
    That this iteration would cause to cost extra?
    Would your team not be up to it?

    ~ By asking this question You clearly don't understand how videogames are developed or funded.
  • eld
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    I think an important factor which is completely ignored with graphics is its affects on gameplay.

    Every one of these fantastic looking games out on the market today on the consoles have earned its looks from using a ton of tricks, and having a very focused scene of gameplay, and faking everything that is outside of it. And there's a ton of budget put down into developing systems that can do these things, or stream content, and there's a ton of artists that have to spend time on doing things that really doesn't add to the art at all, like optimizations, planning to make something cost less than it does, building lod steps, remaking stuff since they already baked something.

    It's not just about the art, it's what kind of worlds we can create that are actually real and going on, without having to rely on faking everything that is outside of the players near view, it's about having the same kind of fidelity but being able to do these elderscrolls type of games where you can just build the world and not have to worry about how to solve the backdrop.

    wODPN.jpg

    There's a ton of money going in to trying to fake things to seem like things they are not, while we could in fact with the current pc hardware levels having reached exponentially higher levels than the consoles do some really real experiences without having to cut down on the fantastic level of technical achievements we have managed to reach, and the artwork we could do with those tools.

    Maybe one day we don't have to do this:

    masseffectelevator5--article_image.jpg
  • dr jekyll
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    Dreamer wrote: »
    ~ By asking this question You clearly don't understand how videogames are developed or funded.
    This is actually very true, the only games I have worked on was funded by an eccentric rich hippie with an inheritance that I burned through never to see the light of day.
    So please.
  • ambershee
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    Prophecies wrote: »
    More RAM does not = faster loading times. Your hard drive does that.

    When the player begins the game, load content for that section of the game into memory. As the player progresses, stream it from the disk into memory. Higher bandwidth and more memory means you can put more in memory, and faster - given a current optical disk based game tends to be under 6.5Gb (albeit compressed) to fit on a DVD, given 6Gb of memory and reasonable bandwidth, sitting pretty with current-gen content could cut out the need to load between levels.

    The situation eld describes above with Mass Effect streaming content while you wait in an elevator is a classic example of not having enough memory to contain the content, so it has to play switcheroo while the game is still running. This is still in the PC version, but if you have a reasonable spec machine, it's all handled well before whatever quip the characters come out with.

    There are games that already do this on the 360s limited spec.
  • dr jekyll
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    eld wrote: »
    I think an important factor which is completely ignored with graphics is its affects on gameplay.

    Every one of these fantastic looking games out on the market today on the consoles have earned its looks from using a ton of tricks, and having a very focused scene of gameplay, and faking everything that is outside of it. And there's a ton of budget put down into developing systems that can do these things, or stream content, and there's a ton of artists that have to spend time on doing things that really doesn't add to the art at all, like optimizations, planning to make something cost less than it does, building lod steps, remaking stuff since they already baked something.

    It's not just about the art, it's what kind of worlds we can create that are actually real and going on, without having to rely on faking everything that is outside of the players near view, it's about having the same kind of fidelity but being able to do these elderscrolls type of games where you can just build the world and not have to worry about how to solve the backdrop.

    Thats a really good point!
    Reminds me of Tim Sweeny evangalizing as much... ( Not only the art pipeline but all the trickery he hacks together when in the future raw processing power would/should alleviate )
  • eld
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    dr jekyll wrote: »
    Thats a really good point!
    Reminds me of Tim Sweeny evangalizing as much... ( Not only the art pipeline but all the trickery he hacks together when in the future raw processing power would/should alleviate )

    Exactly, I wouldn't in any way deny the sheer awesomeness in people pulling tricks to make games look good, I've been through all that hard work myself, and I've seen fantastic artists together with programmers pull some true magic.

    But we are essentially spending a ton of money on making sure we can actually make these good looking scenes work, and so that we can squeeze that last bit of prop in, and then cutting levels apart, zoning them and having to make sure we don't go above the already silly low memory levels we have in the consoles.

    You can easily build a computer and put in 32 times the standard memory of a console in it without it having to cost much extra.
  • eld
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    ambershee wrote: »
    The situation eld describes above with Mass Effect streaming content while you wait in an elevator is a classic example of not having enough memory to contain the content, so it has to play switcheroo while the game is still running. This is still in the PC version, but if you have a reasonable spec machine, it's all handled well before whatever quip the characters come out with.

    There are games that already do this on the 360s limited spec.

    Exactly, or games will rely on streaming, which isn't the easiest feature to implement or something you can just carelessly use as you wish.

    Not to mention huge sandbox games (once again using elderscrolls as an example) where they would have to pull climbing and floating from the series since big cities would have to be zoned off due to performance, which is an example of graphics and hardware directly affecting gameplay.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Calling it: The next Xbox will be announced in 2012 and will launch 2013 holiday shopping season.

    Hopefully with less proprietary technology, I wonder how much the IBM Xenon processor added to costs compared to using an existing Intel processor.
  • SHEPEIRO
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    yeah replacing smoke and mirror hacks with actual simulation would work...BUT then someone will come and do 1000 more things at the same time using smoke and mirrors (further down the consoles cycle)...

    as a lighting guy here I am looking forward to good GI solutions that dont require a load of smoke and mirrors (even if the tools are good)

    has anyone noticed that games of a leading edge level of detail are getting more and more linear. a new generation would hopefully alleiviate some of this allowing for easier development openworld games or just slightly less corridorified games
  • NordicNinja
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    So how much to you think the budgets will have to balloon to accommodate the newer consoles? There's always a lot of talk about production budgets getting larger (which is true) but I'm wondering if it will be as extreme with this next generation.

    I mean (on the art side)...we're already sculpting high res assets, retopologizing, baking maps, designing, concepting, ect. This general workflow will carry over to the next generation of development right? The workflow made a dramatic change from developing for the last generation to accommodate the new technology available. I can't see the workflow changing so dramatically for this next gen. So whats causing the dramatic increases in budget?

    I understand there's going to be that increased time/money because of the higher expectation of the visual fidelity. More time spent working with lighting and shaders but as far as asset generation goes I don't see any huge difference that will double the dev cost like some have been saying.

    Oh, and for what its worth I don't see the next consoles coming until 2013 at the earliest. I'm really curious to see what the specs are going to be though.
  • eld
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    SHEPEIRO wrote: »
    has anyone noticed that games of a leading edge level of detail are getting more and more linear. a new generation would hopefully alleiviate some of this allowing for easier development openworld games or just slightly less corridorified games

    Very true, but that has little to do with the graphics, linearity has more to due with easing up on the complexity that the player has to put up with, for good and for bad.
  • mLichy
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    eld wrote: »
    Very true, but that has little to do with the graphics, linearity has more to due with easing up on the complexity that the player has to put up with, for good and for bad.


    Also the fact that making something linear vs. something like GTA or Skyrim takes a shit ton of more dev time + testers + bug fixing.
  • eld
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    mLichy wrote: »
    Also the fact that making something linear vs. something like GTA or Skyrim takes a shit ton of more dev time + testers + bug fixing.

    In the case of sandbox games, absolutely.

    I was thinking more old school first person shooters where level design sometimes had a bit more freedom and non-linearity.
  • ZacD
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    I don't think the Wii U will put any pressure on Sony or Microsoft, they are really only competing against each other. I feel that Sony or Microsoft will have to announce or suggest SOMETHING before the Wii U releases though. I really wish there was more PC games that but consoles to shame though, just something that says "current gen consoles could never do that."
  • SHEPEIRO
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    @eld- "Very true, but that has little to do with the graphics,"

    IT does if your trying to maintain the bleeding edge of graphic fidelity increasing the linearity increases the amount of memory available by up to or over 3x... a linear corridor you only need to load (this is with streaming) infront and bwehind, if you grid ify this its the detail your on the detail infront and behind... with an openworld it needs to load the detail to each side (generally 3x though at distances it becomes circular so some savings are made)

    this contributes to memory foot print and disc reads and CPU overhead as there are more potential things (characters props AI etc) to contend with due to non-linearity
  • eld
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    SHEPEIRO wrote: »
    @eld- "Very true, but that has little to do with the graphics,"

    IT does if your trying to maintain the bleeding edge of graphic fidelity increasing the linearity increases the amount of memory available by up to or over 3x... a linear corridor you only need to load (this is with streaming) infront and bwehind, if you grid ify this its the detail your on the detail infront and behind... with an openworld it needs to load the detail to each side (generally 3x though at distances it becomes circular so some savings are made)

    this contributes to memory foot print and disc reads and CPU overhead as there are more potential things (characters props AI etc) to contend with due to non-linearity

    Oh yeah, I got that, I thought we were talking linear level design versus non-linear in a shooter for example.
  • dr jekyll
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    In this months Game Developers Magazine the editorial was kind of interesting. The editor got a lot of backlash from an interview he had done with ID before Rage was released in which the developers were critisized because of the level of linear hand holding. The impression I got from the reaction of the developers was that they were shocked that anyone would have a problem being "led" around the wasteland and the author could only suppose that they developed in a vacuum or that no one wanted to call "ID" out on a gameplay issue.


    My carpal tunnel Consolitis circa 1978:
    Click click click click Click click
    magnavox_odyssey2.jpg
    http://videogamessystem.blogspot.com/2011/04/magnavox-odyssey-2-game-system.html

    I remember the joy stick as being quite responsive however.
  • ZacD
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    I personally believe having a linear story line is perfectly fine, as long as the story is strong and the whole game is based around that aspect. Some games are better suited for a linear movie like approach, others need to be completely open. But there's are more game dev issues, besides for the streaming issues from a tech stand point.
  • Andreas
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    dr jekyll wrote: »
    And sadly I haven't found the game that has hit me as hard as the best film experiences.

    You're in the right place so :poly142: BTW there's tons of work in non-game related CG, so its not the only game in town by a long shot! ;)
  • dr jekyll
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    Andreas wrote: »
    You're in the right place so :poly142: BTW there's tons of work in non-game related CG, so its not the only game in town by a long shot! ;)

    There is another artistic forum whose members are primarily interested in creating "real time rendered immersive environments" and the end result of that experience is not a game? I don't think interactivity on the GPU has evolved past games yet. But "when" it does it will be born here. As far as real time talent is concerned the best polygonal minds are here. ( thus the only game in town ). Before 2001 I was in broadcasting working hard for a Pixar direction. After the final fantasy movie on the first nvidia card ( 1rst or second? ) The writing on the wall said real time rendered immersive digital experience. And the discovery of it's language will be born out of the video game.
    You can see the promise as small baby steps in every great game that is released.
  • Andreas
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    dr jekyll wrote: »
    After the final fantasy movie on the first nvidia card ( 1rst or second? )

    What? Are you talking about rendered in real-time? You said something about the FF movie being rendered in real-time previously. The first Nvidia card could not do that, hell, the card in my system now could not do that, and it's a 3GB Nvidia.
    dr jekyll wrote: »
    The writing on the wall said real time rendered immersive digital experience. And the discovery of it's language will be born out of the video game.

    I'm pretty sure you are smoking crack right now.

    EDIT: Found it;
    dr jekyll wrote: »
    For me it was the Nvidia demo-ing of the final fantasy movie in "real time".

    You are definitely on crack.
  • dr jekyll
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    Andreas wrote: »
    What? Are you talking about rendered in real-time? You said something about the FF movie being rendered in real-time previously. The first Nvidia card could not do that, hell, the card in my system now could not do that, and it's a 3GB Nvidia.
    http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_20010813_8706.html
    Andreas wrote: »
    You are definitely on crack.
    I have my keychains that say otherwise :poly124: ( 2 years sober and proud of it )
  • Andreas
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    dr jekyll wrote: »

    Yeah that wasn't their first card, or even second. Not by a long shot.
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