Upgrading my crappy computer - polycount please help :)
polycounter lvl 14
Hello guys. About time I put some new parts in this computer. Will be getting new CPU, Motherboard and RAM. Going to keep the rest as I can't afford it atm.
I've read other threads about upgrades and trying to keep it simple but just wanted to make sure I am not doing something wrong.
Older parts that I am keeping are:
- power supply Fortron 400 W
- ATI HD4850 1 GB
- HD 500 gb seagate , 500 gb WD
New parts:
- CPU: Core i5-2400
- Motherboard: GA-P67-DS3-B3
- RAM: Kingston HyperX Blu DDR3 1600 2 x 4GB
I know it is not top of the line but it should be tons faster compared to my old dual core.... and also it looks like if I need to I can grab i7 later on and if I decide to upgrade the CPU I can keep the MB.
My question is: that 400 W power supply should be enough to run those things right?
I should also mention that I dont care so much about gaming ( I do but I need this for work primarily ) and I am using Zbrush, PS and 3ds Max. Would love to be able to push more polys in Zbrush and actually why I decided to upgrade is the AO bakes
so freaking slow just killing me Would be cool if I can actually afford to do any renders of my high poly models for my folio as well , because as of now it just takes forever
I am pretty much sold on the CPU but if you guys can suggest different, better MB that will be great.
Thanks Polycount
I've read other threads about upgrades and trying to keep it simple but just wanted to make sure I am not doing something wrong.
Older parts that I am keeping are:
- power supply Fortron 400 W
- ATI HD4850 1 GB
- HD 500 gb seagate , 500 gb WD
New parts:
- CPU: Core i5-2400
- Motherboard: GA-P67-DS3-B3
- RAM: Kingston HyperX Blu DDR3 1600 2 x 4GB
I know it is not top of the line but it should be tons faster compared to my old dual core.... and also it looks like if I need to I can grab i7 later on and if I decide to upgrade the CPU I can keep the MB.
My question is: that 400 W power supply should be enough to run those things right?
I should also mention that I dont care so much about gaming ( I do but I need this for work primarily ) and I am using Zbrush, PS and 3ds Max. Would love to be able to push more polys in Zbrush and actually why I decided to upgrade is the AO bakes
so freaking slow just killing me Would be cool if I can actually afford to do any renders of my high poly models for my folio as well , because as of now it just takes forever I am pretty much sold on the CPU but if you guys can suggest different, better MB that will be great.
Thanks Polycount
Replies
That PSU should be fine, if not, buy a new one. If it worked for your old PC, and you're not adding anything that sucks a massive amount of power, theres no reason why it wouldn't work for the new one.
As for motherboards, just get something cheap, reliable with good ratings and only the features you need. Too often the "expensive" motherboards are just loaded full of shit nobody ever needs, 3xSLI and all sorts of overclocking features, 7 PCI slots or whatever - just get something cheap and stable.
It looks like I should go for the i5 2500 not sure if I want to mess with any OC but the 2500k is very little more expensive. That being said if that means that I need to get better cooling I dont think I am interested.
And yeah I hope PSU does the job
Thanks again EQ.
I was not sure about some of the numbers so I found that site - http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine
It does it for you- so for my new parts it came up with recommended PSU Wattage of 348 and minimum of 300 so I guess I don't have 100 more on top of that , but this is already 3 years old PSU so I think it should be fine, right?
Well, its an old PSU, so who cares? If it only lasts one more year, he can buy another if/when it dies. No use preemptively buying new stuff just because something "might" fail. Might as well buy a new video card, hard drive, etc too then.
If he was buying new I would agree, get a 500,550w or so, but its a used PSU that has suited him just fine in a very similar build. He's just swapping out CPU/Mobo/Ram here, remember.
Though a 550w 80+ PSU is cheap enough to just go and get a new one, it all depends on budget.
If he's going to replace anything from his re-use list, I would suggest a brand new HDD(or SDD) HDD failure can be a massive problem, PSU failure is only a minor inconvenience.
You get what you pay for, he wants a stable system for 3d work, Intel is definitely the way to go. If you're building an HTPC or cheapest-possible gaming setup AMD is fine, but for a workstation, stability is one of the most important factors.
Also as I said games are not so important as of now- I need it just for 3d work.
Thanks for the help everybody. I am really lost with all of those numbers
Even if you can't afford a big one, a 64Gb one will be plenty to run the OS and any modelling apps from.
Edit: thanks CheeseONToast, I was thinking about it and just spoke with a friend who told me not to as he did not get all that much performance boost.... I've read that everybody is recommending them so there must be a reason for it. Besides faster start up time with what else would I benefit of having one of those? Would it help zbrush or max work better ?
Thanks again.
Oh, also feel free to send me your 85mm if you're so bored with it.
Maybe it's just me, but I find it irritating to have a PSU go out on me. It's usually good practice to upgrade your PSU when you upgrade the CPU/GPU. Besides, a decent 500-600W PSU isn't much more than $50-$60, so it's a worthwhile upgrade if it gets you 3-4 years of use. An old PSU at peak power could tank at any moment. If you've got money burning a hole in your pocket, buy one, keep it in the box, and when the old one goes kaput, pop the new one in.
I would not risk it.
400w seems low for those components.
What he really meant.
I'm with Rex on this, I think you need at least 750w imo (if that's to high, that's in case you decide to upgrade in the future)
Otherwise for the things you want to do, it seems pretty good. Gaming you may not do amazing, but you said you don't care too much for it
also make sure your old power supply has all the proper power connectors for your new mobo such as the 8-pin CPU power without the need of a converter.
500w works for me at home - core i7, radeon 6970, 2 HDDs
Now the 4850 can draw up to 250W at peak load and the i5 draws 120W at peak. That's 370 already and we haven't touched the other parts yet. So you're going to run the rest of it on 30W? You're going to kill that PSU and possibly the mb, GPU, and CPU. Even worse, no PSU is 100% efficient. Most are 80% efficient on average. So, take the peak wattage of the CPU, GPU, HDD, and RAM. Add them together, divide by 8 (gives 10% of wattage), multiply by 10 (gives 100% wattage), and that's your minimum wattage.
For example:
The 4850 is 250W peak, the i5 is 120W peak, DDR3 RAM is 6W, and most HDD are 30W each (let's say we have two, which is common).
250+120+6+30*2=436/8*10=~545W peak @ 80% efficiency.
So no, 400W won't do it.
I would recommend a 600W PSU with an 80 PLUS certification at minimum. This should cover all of your big power components and leave room for all your additional devices (DVD, PCI cards, etc.). You could go higher to account for capacitor degradation (which reduces efficiency and peak power output).
Greevar thanks for the breakdown.
disanski - I agree with everyone else that if you're not on a super tight budget it'd be prudent to get the best quality you can.
the reason I say this is if you are keeping your GFX card it will likely last you a year or so and then you'll want to upgrade that too, and I think with current gen cards that PSU will melt..
Also, greevar, a 400w 80% efficient PSU means an actual power usage of 500w. A 500w 50% efficient PSU would be a net draw of 1000w. You don't only get 320w out of a 400w 80% PSU, the efficiency is a measurement of how much actual wattage it needs to get to the rated wattage. NOT how much wattage you're "losing" from the rated wattage. The fact that you don't understand this makes me seriously question the advice you give.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/80_PLUS
Again, for his old 400w psu, there isn't much reason not to buy a new one, but anything over 500w, 550w is just 100% nonsense and 450w would be perfectly acceptable. When it comes down to it, he should buy the quietest and most efficient 450-550w psu in his price range.
By this logic, unless his old CPU used negative 150w, his PSU would have never powered his old system. In all likelyhood he's probably been running that system for years on it. So again, nonsense. All he is changing is his mobo/cpu/ram, which would mean a minor difference in power requirements.
TL;DR: 750w for a mid-range PC = Trolololololololing. I know you guys need some justification for buying ridiculously over powered power supplies, but at-least do the research before advising others to do the same.
Ok, so I got efficiency backwards, so what? It doesn't mean the rest of my math is wrong and it still doesn't mean that 400W is enough. The GPU+CPU+RAM+HDD still comes out to 436W, which is what the system tries to pull from the PSU at power on and under high demand. That doesn't even account for fans/control, DVD, USB devices, PCI cards, and capacitor degradation. 400W just isn't enough. 500W would be more reasonable, but 600W would be the best choice to ensure that it lasts longer than a year and has room for future upgrades to the GPU and storage. That 400W running what he wants to upgrade to will kill it and possibly blow caps on his motherboard when it fails or worse.
Edit: Okay, I just looked over the link you posted and it reinforces my point. Running the PSU at full load will lower efficiency and increase waste heat. This is what will happen on the 400W. Not good. Running it at half to three-quarter load will yield the best efficiency. So, given that you need 436W to run the system at peak, 600W would be ideal because it runs just under 75% load at peak providing the best efficiency under most usage.
Lol, so all my math was wrong and my suggestions are completely inaccurate, so what?
You can't simply look at max output for each component and assume this will be the norm or even *ever* happen. Especially because he specifically stated he's not buying the system for gaming, which is about the only task that will max his CPU and GPU at the same time. Offline rendering with max his CPU, but not GPU. 3d modeling will max his GPU in spurts, and his CPU in spurts, but rarely if ever at the same time or for extended periods.
You're still not getting the basic concept, his new system will have what, a cpu that maybe takes about 30w extra? Possibly even the same wattage? Its hard to say without knowing his old cpu, but its very unlikely that his old cpu only used 20w of power. The fact that his PSU hasn't blown and killed his computer and his dog and the rest of his family, means your concerns are exaggerated. 450w will easily cover any increase in wattage from his CPU.
In addition to that, how many of you guys have EVER had a PSU burn out and fry other components? I've had MANY die and never had damage to other components.
Right there are certainly situations where you need more, i'm talking specifically about the computer the OP is building and what he wants to use it for. If you've got SLI GTX580's, you will want a beefy PSU. But thats neither here nor there.
The problem here is that your 436w number is simply physically impossible, if that were true, his old system never would have booted let alone run for *years*. Anyway, like i said, 450-550w.
If we assume about 320w, which is more reasonable, that's about 70% usage on a 450w PSU and gives the same benefits. Even at 350w, thats ~80%, or 72% on a 500w PSU. If you're really anal or actually planing to add something else significant to the system, go 550w. Anything beyond that is just silly.
First off, my math was not completely wrong, just the part on efficiency. And you accuse me of exaggerating. The machine will draw 436W at peak demand. It might not be the norm, but why chance it? It's best to prepare for the worst than to just cut corners. You're taking my point about peak power and applying it as if it's the norm. That's a complete exaggeration.
What's the big deal anyway? A 500-600W PSU of decent quality won't cost much more than $70 (likely less than that) if you're a smart shopper. That's about the same as a collector's edition of a popular game, so it's affordable. It's not like the cost a GPU or CPU. It's a cheap and easy precaution to take. Why avoid it? He's upgrading anyway, so it's only a slight extra cost and he'll need one soon eventually.
The change will not be an instantaneous reaction, that would take a huge difference of at least 200W or more. What will happen is the extra strain will degrade the PSU even faster due to the increased heat. If that PSU pops from overheating, it could take other components with it from a surge. 600W is perfect. It will put him in the 50% to 75% load sweet spot and give him maximum efficiency even at peak demand. He won't have to worry about a PSU again for at least 3 years this way.
Again, you wont even respond to my point about actual realistic usage, but keep pointing to some theoretical numbers that will never happen.
Sure a 700w PSU isn't very expensive either, its just the misinformation and myths that are perpetuated about this stuff that bothers me.
When new technology is designed and ultimately released, is it safe to say that these companies target their product to meet a certain target in power consumption and find ways to produce a viable product that will increase performance but also not debilitate the consumer by forcing them to buy a new PSU in order to fall in line with the technological advancement?
..... i'm just asking..... I mean if I was a company that designed GPUs, I would be afraid of my product not getting a solid return if it required a nuclear generator to run it.
on the flipside, if you got the coin to throw down on your electric bill for a PSU that will run a porsche, then stop being greedy and give some of that shit to unicef.
and unless you plan on doing some noise like this http://www.polycount.com/2010/08/12/v-ray-rt-at-siggraph/ then i wouldn't even bother with crazy psus and gpu configs.
I have read almost every one of the threads about new computers over the past year and this is what got me familiar with what I would need. About the psu I am still not sure. I am not going to be replacing the parts myself as just next door to my house there is a shop that will do it for me if i get the parts from them and it will be almost free and done for about an hour + I get 2 years warranty from them. Even if I would love to learn how to do it myself I am having a lot of troubles when I have to deal with tech stuff
So I was thinking to just ask them for PCU as well. They will defintely get me something that will be enough and I will definitely ask for quite one as I guess that might be the most noisy part of my computer right now.
Also I dont really care about 20-50 bucks but I just try to be smart buyer and this is not just about PC parts but about anything I ever get besides food
Same goes for cameras lets say my camera was 6-7 years old but still way better for what I need it than something that would cost two times more.. any way dont want to derail again.
The older CPU was intel core 2 duo e7400/2.8g and it was running on 85 W the new one is 95W. Honestly besides the AO bake and some minor lag in zbrush when I hit more than 8 mil polys and have more than 3 layers, I am really fine with this current computer. Always wondered how much faster would top of the line computer be
Any way the discussion here was really helpful as were all the rest of the talks about computers on polycount. I hope I can order the parts next week.
Thanks again everybody
He will probably get by with 400W, but he won't be able to push the hardware to its full potential (peak demand says he needs 436W and it's not impossible to hit that ceiling), but why bother upgrading if you're not going to use the hardware to it's full benefit anyway? He's not a gamer, so he ought to be fine with what he has.
Yeah because why would anyone bother buying a computer if you're not going to use at at 100% full load all the time? Nice strawman though.
Got a bad case of the G.I.A.R.S
That's not what I said. Running at peak 100% of the time and having access to it are completely different. I was talking about have access to the upper limit of performance. 400W doesn't allow that. You can max out the GPU or the CPU at any given time, but you can't do both. You'll bottleneck the system and overheat the PSU. Talk about a strawman.
There's a reason you often think I'm 100% wrong, you take my comments to hyperbolic levels and argue against that. You're suffering from "Greevar Is Always Wrong Syndrome" and you're trolling now.
This would be the case if the PSU was actually running at peak levels, but most have quite a bit of wiggle room. A shitty brand cheap PSU's actual peak maybe close to it's rated Wattage and worse than that have bad ripples on the rails which screws stuff up. On the other hand you have a PSU from a reputable brand or series and they go far beyond their rated voltage eg: I have a 750watt corsair PSU that was tested and went beyond 1000watts without any issues.
The OP has a fortron PSU which while not flashy are well built and conservatively rated, and would have no issues running his projected new system on it.
core i5 2500
GA-P67-DS3-B3
2x4 GB Kingston DDR3 1600
and I also got new PSU as suggested above Cooler Master 500 W
Everything is a lot quicker now. I should have done it long time ago but I was feeling ok with my old rig. Now I see the difference.
I don't have to split my model into parts in zbrush- tested it with older model and went up to 20 mil polys per subtool and could probably go higher too but if my latest subdivision is at 10 mil polys it is clear that it is not going to jump to 40 mil polys
In max everything is a lot more responsive even if I was not expecting to see big improvement there as I am keeping my old video card and I was thinking this is what matters for performance in 3ds max viewport but I see huge improvement there too. AO baking seems possible now
In future I might change that antic video card as well and get a SSD.
Thanks again for the help guys
Good for you, I hope you enjoy it. When you're looking into GPU's, look for a Radeon 6870 or a GTX 560. Anything less will be too little gain for your money. Good luck!