What to do after college - going indie?
Hey guys i'm about a year away from finishing my bachelors in Digital Entertainment and Game Design at ITT Technical Institute with 11 months in QA
basically speaking, i'm not happy with what the norm future has in store for me in the industry.:poly127:
SO to the point, maybe a year or 2 ago it wasn't possible but nowadays it seems perfectly feasible to start developing apps in or out of college. The start up costs are so low it seems almost ridiculous.
unity free + android = $400
lawyer (to set up llc) ~ $700
modeling apps = free
droid emulator = free
so for about $1100 dollars theoretically you could develop android apps using unity.:poly121:
as for income i plan to sell the apps free and benefit from admob and mobclix which are both open source and do not require money down or a purchase.
now because of my degree i actually have knowledge in all of the areas from programing to production to character modeling/animation, and i've actually expanded on most of them. if it helps i even already pretty much have a game done.
:poly141:My question to you guys is, what do you think? is it a bad idea to start up an app developing company, or is it the greatest idea you have ever heard? what about as a full-time job?
also i have read a bunch of the articles on indie startup, but mostly they never mention just plain cheap app development.
if you wanna know my capabilities in max, for some reason http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83379
basically speaking, i'm not happy with what the norm future has in store for me in the industry.:poly127:
SO to the point, maybe a year or 2 ago it wasn't possible but nowadays it seems perfectly feasible to start developing apps in or out of college. The start up costs are so low it seems almost ridiculous.
unity free + android = $400
lawyer (to set up llc) ~ $700
modeling apps = free
droid emulator = free
so for about $1100 dollars theoretically you could develop android apps using unity.:poly121:
as for income i plan to sell the apps free and benefit from admob and mobclix which are both open source and do not require money down or a purchase.
now because of my degree i actually have knowledge in all of the areas from programing to production to character modeling/animation, and i've actually expanded on most of them. if it helps i even already pretty much have a game done.
:poly141:My question to you guys is, what do you think? is it a bad idea to start up an app developing company, or is it the greatest idea you have ever heard? what about as a full-time job?
also i have read a bunch of the articles on indie startup, but mostly they never mention just plain cheap app development.
if you wanna know my capabilities in max, for some reason http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83379
Replies
Honestly, I'd recommend you get some actual studio experience while working on indie games in your spare time, and after a few years if you want to go indie full-time go for it.
Either way, good luck!
Grab Eclipse and LibGDX or AndEngine and write some simple games. no need to bring unity and the complexity of 3d into the equation until you know your serious and can deliver.
also if your writing games a handset is pretty essential. you cant do multitouch on the android emulator. and its pretty slow. if you want to provide on screen 'joypads' you'll need to be able to test em on a device.
on that subject a nice thing about libgdx is its a wrapper for both windows and android so your code will run transparently on both platforms with no modification (with the exception of the base application class which you do once and forget about.) so you can do your testing on windows for anything other than multitouch input and skip the emu.
Its good to see how a larger scale production functions and then apply those things to your efforts. Things like some type of source control software like perforce, seeing how things are scheduled, implemented and tested as well as picking up the reasons why design decisions are being made.
I would probably say get 3-5 years experience in actual production before considering doing your own thing, or like skylebones said, start doing some on the side at home. the initial cost is low but you have to consider the cost of your time for development, if you are going to focus on it fulltime how are you going to pay rent, loans etc. By working professionally for a few years it should also help you get some startup capital for your 1st project.
that said, I also think if you can survive that long as an indie then you'll have learned a ton that way too, but the risk is you fall into one of those pitfalls and it scuppers you. Maybe doing a bit of learning at someone elses risk is a good way to start
What you'll need beyond what you wrote:
a lot of living expenses for a while.
Some form of marketing for your game if you actually want to make money.
I think if you go into this, you should just keep in mind that your first game probably won't be profitable. That's not to say it won't lead to very profitable ventures though.
Edit: Oh yeah, I also recommend studio experience and work on your game on your free time.
The revenue that you'll get from ads isn't as much as you think. You'll have to hit it big with it to get a decent revenue just off of ads.
I dont think making mobile games is a good idea. Everyone is doing it and all the markets are flooded. The chances of a really good game getting recognized is very low, unless you have a large marketing budget or maybe some smart viral "marketing".
I think making interesting and innovative PC games (things that people will blog about or get on Kotaku) and trying to get them on steam is a better goal to shoot for. Even if you cant get your first games on steam you can still distribute them independently, and marketing to people who play indie games is pretty much free. IndieDB is a surprisingly good way of building a fan/user base and initial marketing.
I kinda agree with skylebones, Get a stable job and work on indie stuff in your free time before trying to make a living making indie games.
my side of view:
skylebones: technically speaking i have 5 years of experience, 1 of which is in-studio. but i'm curious as to what you mean by not being able to do it with free/cheap programs, or more precisely why i can't?
r_fletch_r: i've never heard of those engines tbh, i like unity because it's cheap, easy, and you can pump out a game in a month if you have to. i am also more familiar with object-oriented programming
PixelMasher: your right in-studio experience is amazing, i learned more in about 3 weeks than i ever did in school. I may only be QA, but i see everything besides the actual asset creation, we're a small studio. but 3-5 years is that really how much is required to even think about creating games?
aesir: kind of my plan, as i mentioned i do have a game near completion, i plan to sell it free and benefit from admob type stuff, i don't plan to make alot off it. but a little income multiplied by a couple games makes for a hopefully reasonable income.
rico: wisconsin
commander_keen: i was told by someone who had spoken to a lawyer that even to place an app on the market puts you at risk of being sewed and that it was a smart idea to create a llc, which you can do online but i would rather go through a lawyer
i'm getting kind of a mixed idea here though, the general consensus though seems to be experience, but my reply is, does my school years not count toward that, also what about my year as QA, i have learned alot from that especially all about the inner workings of a studio as where i work is smaller.
i think theres a miss understanding also that i'll like be renting space or something. the LLC is to avoid liability just in case, i were to get sued for some random stupid thing.
also i do have friends who own droids one of which may help with development
thanks for all the replies this is very helpful for getting this all figured out and finalized as a yes or no and how best to do it, i'll probably just do it part-time if thats the best way. i just wanna do what i love, make games
maybe if i can make a pretty penny on app development
Really?
Is there any kind of censorship for the apps?
Im not entirely sure about how they deal with censorship, but you can deploy what you like.
Your QA job, even working there for a year, only gave you a sneak-peak as to how the artists work. You need to work in a studio job as a developer to really learn the ins and outs of the development process.
hmm that sounds great, did you go through a lawyer? i know you can create one through an online form for pretty much the cost of filing the paperwork.
No and not really. School (at least for me..didn't even come close to prepping me, and I've held a QA job for 2 years as well. Even though you get to see what developers are doing, your on the outside looking in. You learn by doing.
I like Unity, and even if you aren't good with code...theres state manager plugins and whatnot to help you get things done visually.
I would say, go for it and have fun...its not like it costs a lot of money, but definitely don't quit your day job. Like most other people said, the mobile market is flooded. Even if your game is very well done, it could come and go and nobody will notice. mobile/indie games that make solid money are very rare.
If it's for a job, then we're talking job experience - time spent in the trenches. bootcamp don't count. But if you have a game or mod on your resume that's looking good it COULD definitely help. Although keep in mind that a mod with awesome gameplay but mediocre gfx won't help your gfx artist job application much.
Also before spending cash on a company registration - make a proof of concept of your game and see if you can even do it. Otherwise you're throwing money out of the window.
Liability issues aside, setting up a company is a good idea because you can market your company rather than individual games. Company recognition should grow with time which makes marketing a game under that name that much easier as you have an existing fan base. However going without a company name means each game's marketing starts from scratch and only affects that game. Provided you make good games your company's reputation will grow.
With that said you shouldn't bother setting up a company until you've got your first game ready for sale.
You could stick with Unity as it's what you know and you'll only get better at it. Though I don't think the Android market is a good one for beginners, from what I've read (the rest of that blog is a good read too) it only brings in about one third of the income as the iphone/ipad market. I'd say start with Flash games which are fairly easy to make and monetize while getting experience actually making games.
Android is of course free to develop for, has fewer (or non-existent) approval restrictions, and has a larger global market share. However, none of those factors mean you're any more likely to sell anything.
I would estimate that a huge proportion of Android users don't even buy apps. I had a Samsung Galaxy S last year after having two iPhones prior to that. I'd spent a ton on apps on my iOS devices, but didn't buy a single app or game on my Android phone. Earlier this year I switched back to an iPhone 4, and have since bought a bunch more apps. Put simply, there's a hell of a lot of crap on the Android Marketplace, and it just isn't an attractive place to sell your stuff. Sure there's plenty of crap on the App Store too, but the overall quality level is far higher than Android.
What I'm saying is, just because you can develop for Android more easily, cheaply, and in some cases with less waiting time, you may still not sell anything at all.
Add to this the fact that you're developing for a huge range of devices. Do you develop a cutting edge game that only runs on the latest device? You're gonna miss out on the majority of users who still run their year old handset and that 'cutting edge handset' will be outdated by next month. So do you develop for the mass market and their 'average' handsets? I would guess they're the least likely demographic to actually buy the app.
With iOS, you know where you stand. You know that the devices you're testing on are the same hardware, running the same software and it's only going to change once a year or so. Yes the approval process can be slow and strict, but that's with good reason, it helps filter out most of the crap on the App Store. Providing you don't slip a pair of boobs or some hate-infused language, or ripoff an IP in your app, you should be fine.
My suggestion is this. Get a low end Mac and an iPod Touch (you can get an educational discount at the Apple Store if you're still in college). Get some friends/family with iPhones to test for you (surely you know someone... pretty much everyone I know/see on the street here has one). Get an ADC license which is like $99, and develop a small, interface based app (not game) and see how you get on.
Chances are, you'll sell at least a few apps. I know a guy who put together a pretty basic (but pretty) camera based app that basically just adds a couple vintage filters to your photos. He sold it at $1.99 and made just under $40k in about 9 months.
If you do that before you finish college, you'll know how you like it, and know if you want to move upwards and onwards into full on indie development once you graduate.
You could then buy Unity, which runs on Mac, and get the other apps you need (Maya, PhotoShop, etc all run on Mac, or you could dual boot Windows if you want to) and start working on games once you're familiar with the dev cycle and Apple approval process. If you're previous app(s) have been successful, you should have a good reputation and promoting your new releases should be easier.
Very good advice. If you do a quick google search you'll say how negative most developers seem to be about the android appstore. It seems that the apple appstore is still much much bigger in terms of revenue.
this article is from february: http://techcrunch.com/2011/02/21/861-5-percent-growth-android-puny/
If I do, I plan on living off of my savings for at least a year or two.
While you said that you would use the cheap Unity Android, be warned that you'll be missing out on build size stripping, an integrated lightmapping solution and, most importantly, there will be no occlusion culling. Because of this you will need custom scripting (if it can be done at all in scripting) in order to not be rendering your entire scene at all times.
If you plan on creating games where the entire environment (or at least the majority) is on screen at all times anyway (like a puzzle, physics, or tower defense game) then it shouldn't be a big deal. If you intend to create games with larger spaces (3rd person, first person, racing, flying, etc) this could be a big performance hindrance.
http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6507690/hardly-working-start-up-guys