Arizona Rep. Giffords Shot; Condition Unclear
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http://www.npr.org/2011/01/08/132764367/congresswoman-shot-in-arizona
seems like politics have been leading to this for a long time now
seems like politics have been leading to this for a long time now
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Replies
bullshit
You got evidence for any of that? Or just pure speculation?
I hear ya. I really do. And chances are that the person objected to her policies, probably something like Universal Healthcare. But all we know at this point is speculation.
And even if the guy admits that it was politically motivated, he still acted alone.
These are public figures, and they're bound to piss someone off. Trust me, I went to college in LA during the Bush administration. I heard PLENTY of liberals calling for the flat-out murder of Bush. That guy had enough attempts on his life. This is not a right-wing phenomena only.
All I'm saying is that I really hate how there's this polarization going on. Where one side hates the other so much, that it ends up in murder, and when that happens, it causes even further polarization and hatred among the sides. Instead of doing the logical thing and saying the guy was a nutjob who acted alone.
Holding back a lot of anger right now
What kind of patriot shoots a woman in the head?
A woman and 2 small children, at least.
All they did was schedule an event for June (of LAST YEAR!) to shoot some guns with someone named Jesse Kelly (who I don't even know who that is). How could they know that some nutjob would take it literally (if he even read it at all).
Honestly, this whole topic is extremely emotional.
And it's borderline racist/bigoted, blaming an entire group for one man's action. And I'm not sure why we need a topic like this on a video-game art forum.
But if it's here, can we at least refrain from widespread panic and blaming entire demographics for one man's insanity?
I mean, the guy killed children for f's sake. He didn't even manage to get his target. He obviously went off the deep end.
CNN reports that 5 injured, 5 in serious condition (including the congresswoman), and 1 dead child.
Watch live here:
http://www.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=stream1
Honestly, I need to start putting my predictions up on the internet because I was kind of worried this would happen. Not blaming the entire group but to me the Tea Party has always looked like an extremist group that would attract dangerous people like this.
What does that have to do with it though? You're basically saying the only reason this person did what he did, was because he belonged to a group, and therefore that entire group is guilty. Which yeah, that's bigotry.
When the fact of the matter is, there is no fact of the matter. We don't know why the person did what he did. So all this is doing is just spreading more angst.
That woman was also anti gun-control. Maybe it was a crazy liberal that did it to illustrate a point.
She's also in Arizona in a border district. And she supported hard-core anti immigration acts, like putting national-guard troops along the border. Maybe the shooting was sponsored by a Mexican gang.
Or, maybe the guy was a tea-party member. I don't know.
Either case, he's a lone nut, nothing more. There isn't a conspiracy, and we can't blame the whole tea party for this.
I'm personally a member of some of those groups, and on the forums for all those the topics are always called "A very sad day" and things along those lines.
There's not a single place that I visit where they're glorifying the shooting.
I'll agree with you. Only that I don't think it's any more out of control than the Republican Party or the Democratic Party.
And I've been in it since day-one, although I'm no longer involved in it in any way for about a year now, since FoxNews, the Republicans and co. took it over, and I don't remember any glorifying of domestic terrorists.
Like I said, while I got nothing to do with the tea party, I'm a Libertarian, and on all the Libertarian forums I visit, this is treated as a tragedy.
It is a tragedy, i worried something like this would happen once tea partiers started bringing guns to rallies: a gun is not a statement or a protest sign, that's a blatent disregard for firearm safety and influencial members of the tea party should of condemned it.
I hope the tea party leadership will finally make some sort of statement condemning this, if they keep their mouth shut it's just a tacit approval. (i'm sure that hag Ann Coulter will write an article along the lines of "she had it coming")
I can guarantee you that there are a negligible amount of legitimate Libertarians who consider people like Ann Coulter sane. That's the woman who believes women shouldn't be allowed to vote because they generally vote Democrat, and that Christians are "perfected Jews", to quote her directly.
And for every nutjob fundamentalist that calls for the bombing of an abortion clinic, you have animal-rights nutjobs that throw molotov cocktails at research scientists.
There's just no point in lumping people up into fictional groups of extremists. That's all I'm saying.
Edit:
Apparently the guy has a Youtube Channel. For now. Not much on it.
The only issue I have with your ideals is this. Your trying to imply both sides are equal of the same amount of hate violence. Which I cannot see.
The examples you gave (animal rights/abortion) are separate/specific issue. Your also assuming they are all far left and all far left feel the same as them *implied*. While vice versa as well with the abortion. Your stereotyping in your assumptions (im guilty as well).
I have to take issue with that, because that's precisely backwards of what I was trying to say. Maybe I didn't get my message across properly.
What I'm saying is that one absolutely cannot, under any circumstance, safely assume that a group at large is responsible for the actions of a member.
I linked the animal-rights case as an example not of a group-action, but to show the absurdity of the argument, and I never said it's a far-left thing btw. If anything, you're the ones assuming the supporters of abortion-clinic bombing are right-wing. If we're starting on the path of saying that individual psychos represent a group, like people say with "muslim terrorists", or with right-wing tea partiers, then that logic should apply to animal rights activists. Yet the absurdity is easy to spot in that last case.
To say, for instance, that muslim terrorists represent the entire arab/muslim world is not only ridiculous, but also harmful because it ignores all the good people as well. Likewise, people who throw molotov cocktails at scientists do not represent all people who believe in animal rights. And a lone gunman shooting a congresswoman doesn't represent the tea party (even if it ever turns out that he was a member, which is looking doubtful at this point), and he sure as hell doesn't represent me.
You did not because
I would agree to a point. However I think it can be said that leaders of such groups have a social responsibility to phrase and imply to their followers to work with the system.
You implied both by the contrast. Else why else give those specific emotionally charged examples?
P.S. Im not talking about the Tea Party.
I pray for a speedy recovery for those who were injured, and I just hope those who have lost their loved ones will be able to make it through this difficult time. No matter what the reason, the death of a child is tragic. People should have a chance to live their lives before being faced with their inevitable end.
If so, then she will be no better than the West Bourough Baptist Church declaring that it was God's will (on twitter) She should join them, she'd fit right in.
Also, Ann is a fan of the Council of Conservative Citizens - a neo-segregationist organization. She's not a member, but she has done many speeches for their organization.
I have done a great deal of research into the mentality of the Tea Party. The problem with the Tea Party is that it's not really a party, nor is it organized. It is rather an upwelling of desent against the rampant government spending and their expectation that we just swallow the bill or hand it off to our kids (tax and spend). It is also encouraged by various media organizations because they are often overly dramatic and is thus good business.
But because it is not organized, you get all walks of life in the mix, with no real consistency between members. You have libertarians, religious conservatives, economic conservatives, conservative nationalists, hill billies who don't really know what they want, and yes, racists.
The good news is that if you ignore today's events, the Tea Party has been reforming itself a bit and through the leadership of various media figures (such as Beck and Palin), come off in a more positive light.
But the damage caused by the inflammatory rhetoric has been done, and although I like the Tea Party movement, I'd by lying if I said I didn't see this coming.
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At this moment in time, the news has consistently been reporting that 18 people were shot, with 6 of them dead. Among the dead is a federal judge and a little girl.
With all due respect, I have to say it though, you're a fool if you don't link up the vitriol of right wing rhetoric, thinly veiled threats of violence, and inflammatory hate rhetoric and what's happened here. The climate where a gun toting maniac makes his move is something the right wing has been giving credence to.
'Second Amendment Remedies' anyone?
So, no, he's not representative, but he's almost definitely a product of the hate rhetoric coming from the right wing, and tea party.
- http://lezgetreal.com/2011/01/pima-county-sheriff-blames-vitriol-from-certain-mouths-about-tearing-down-the-government/
Right off the bat, you're (probably) flat-out wrong because it hasn't been shown that this guy was even a "member" (whatever that means) of the tea party. You're just assuming that.
But that's not even the worst thing.
Let me change what you wrote into a different format, and you'll see the absurdity.
"This danish newspaper has been targeted ever since they published some cartoons. Vandalism, death threats, suspicious packages, and then finally shot by some whacko."
So... what then? Therefore all muslims are terrorists?
What about the christians who call for bombing of abortion clinics? All christians are terrorists?
Or maybe animal-rights activists who call for the murder of scientists? All animal-rights activists are terrorists?
Or maybe all americans are guilty of murder every time our military bombs villages in the middle-east?
etc etc...
In all of those cases you have extremists groups that whackos are naturally drawn to. When we start saying that when one crazy-ass mofo does some crazy stuff, it's really the fault of the entire group, you've pretty much condemned the entire human race.
It just seems to me like a desire to demonize the enemy. Rather than realize the truth, which is that these are just psycho individuals doing their own psycho things.
Edit:
This is the most detailed description I've seen so far of this guy. All sorts of stuff about money and an alternative currency. Literacy rate. Some psycho babble. But I see nothing about Sarah Palin, the Tea Party, Christianity, or anything significant really.
I just think that people want to blame something more than just insanity. And the Tea Party makes a good scapegoat.
It's not comparable to other parties. It is on a totally different level (and with the way Fox news operates, that's saying something!) The fact that they "aren't organized" just makes it even easier to get away with blatant hate crimes.
Don't blame the movement, it was just one guy! It's not like the movement has been practically telling people flat out to do this from day one. If you tell your supporters to walk around strapped to the teeth with guns and that everyone is your enemy, someone is going to get shot.
The best thing that could happen from this tragedy right now is a massive backlash against the insanity of the Tea Party.
All the proof you need that there is not a large contingent of sane Tea Party members is because if they were sane they would have left already. It's been completely out of control for a long time now. Sane, responsible people would start a new party and distance themselves from the majority of crazies.
the simple fact is that acts of violence against this congresswomen were part of the political climate long before this happend. That's literal acts of violence. Read some news papers from a year ago. This woman was targeted by right wing goons coming from the Tea Party a long time ago.
Whether or not the Tea party by proxy, or directly is involved, it is, in my opinion a movement based on anger and aggressive stances that foment unbridled hostility, which unfortunately directly leads to acts just like this.
Correlation doesn't equal causation, but I don't think it's unreasonable for people to observe the correlation.
Item 1:
A liberal congresswoman in the very conservative state of Arizona, Gabrielle Giffords, was shot, along with a number of her staff and constituents, at a political event.
Item 2:
Recent political candidates who hold far-right conservative views have made comments or used imagery that imply using firearms against their political opponents in order to effect change. Items I've heard mentioned today include:
-Sharron Angle, Nevada Tea Party candidate for the US Senate, coining the phrase "Second Amendment remedies" when discussing her campaign against liberal opponent Harry Reid.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/16/sharron-angle-floated-2nd_n_614003.html
-Sarah Palin, Tea Party political activist, tweeting the phrase "Don't Retreat, Instead - RELOAD!"
http://twitter.com/sarahpalinusa/status/10935548053
-Tea Party-endorsed Jesse Kelly, Giffords' opponent in the 2010 election, advertising a campaign event with the sentence "Get on target and remove Gabrielle Giffords from office." Crazyfingers linked this image above.
-And Palin again, publishing a 2010 campaign ad using the word "aim" and crosshairs icons to target political rivals, including Congresswoman Giffords.
IS this proof that Item 2 cause Item 1? No. But is it unreasonable to observe the comments in Item 2 and question if they had an influence in Item 1? Not at all.
At the very least, these two things are incontestable truths: a number of Tea Party political figures have used campaign images and rhetoric that have firearm-themed connotations; and a US Congresswoman who was opposed by a Tea Party candidate in the recent election was shot with a firearm.
It's probably just a coincidence, but it's one huge motherfucker of a coincidence.
But this: Is just an insane suggestion in and of itself.
NOBODY promotes insanity. Nobody. These are not people that agree with you, and yet still go ahead and do the opposite. They're people who disagree with you on stuff. Big whoop.
You're basically saying that your opinion is the only one that counts. Anyone with an opposing opinion is insane, dangerous, and needs to be taken care of. And you carry on to paint a very large group of people, who by the way disagree with one another on a lot, with a very broad stroke.
I just don't know what to say honestly. If you really think that there's a large group of people who know what they're doing is wrong, and do it anyway just to inflict pain and harm on others, then in my personal opinion, to believe that is insanity right there.
Except that there is no correlation! This guy, as far as we know, never even seen any of the stuff you linked. We don't know anything, and we don't know that this is politically motivated. You guys are exploiting this very bad thing that happened for the sole purpose of slandering an entire group of unorganized people who disagree with each other on a lot.
Get over the idea that we're slandering everyone in the Tea Party; we're criticizing the voices within the tea party who propose violence as solution even if only tongue in cheek.
As for Tea Party members, they need to stand up to the charged and hateful speech coming from their representatives. Otherwise they are also part of the problem. Since so far they have not tried even a little to stop the insane nonsense coming from their reps and talking heads, they are part of the problem as far as I'm concerned. At least that is until they change their tone and start acting civilized instead of hostile to opposing ideas simply for the sake of hostility.
You're telling me that you don't see any correlation between these two elements? And you're honestly going to accuse me of slandering people with my post? Really??
I'm a moderate independent. I hate partisan politics in a way you can't imagine. I want to pull my hair out when I hear anyone claim "the Left does this..." or "the Right is guilty of that..." It's not the differences of opinion that get me but the sheer fucking bloodymindedness of it all, the absolute refusal on either side to step back and look at situations with even a modicum of objectivity, much less admit the other side may have a valid point of view.
You're a partisan, a conservative partisan, and you're going to see it the way you want to see it. The fact that so many people are observing this potential relation holds no weight with you. Not the insinuation, but the mere observation. And not from leftist crackpots or liberal media whackos, but from people right here, people you have much in common with. Your view is right and we're ALL wrong - not for making an accusation but wrong for even positing a possibility. I want to beat my head against my keyboard for making the mistake of thinking I could illustrate that possibility to you from a different perspective.
Political partisans... a pox on both your houses.
My heart goes out to the dead and the family of the wounded though.
In all of this I'm sure they're going to ramp up the "anti 2nd amendment" law about owning guns... I mean they banned guns in Mexico and last year 28,000 were killed because of the drug and gun war.
Edit: Just found this... just to feed the fire I guess
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/federal-court-hear-case-mexican-drug-car
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Oh and... fuck all the parties and government bullshit, this can all be solved... it's a simple decision, but a hard and long change due to the current condition our earth is in.
I am not! You know nothing about me, which is exactly why this whole thing is bothering me so much.
I'm not a member of any party. I don't associate with the tea party. And I'm sure as F not a conservative!
And yet when I have an opinion that's different than yours, which really all I'm saying is there's no point blaming an entire group for one man's actions (which again, he's not even a part of!), I'm getting labeled all sorts of ways, and someone wishes a disease upon me.
Dunno wtf I did to deserve that. But I'm done with this topic. Honestly wish I hadn't posted in it to begin with. Maybe a lesson for the future for me.
Bigjohn: I dunno man most of your posts are kinda hostile for various reasons, it might not just be your opinion. If you want to take some kinda victim/martyr role because you're "misunderstood" then whatever. Though that's just my opinion.
Thats a bit hubris. Your coming off with that statement as if you know what to understand. You may not mean it that way, but your wording is very forceful.
Anyhow, again I'm not discussing Tea Parties. Seeing the guys reading list. I'm actually starting to wonder if he is a super libertarian. So much so to become an Anarchist.
But man, I just cant see how he can justify the violence he did to the kids. Though he wasnt working alone supposedly.
I guess... I mean, I get upset when someone wishes me a disease. Maybe it was jokingly?
At any case, I'm definitely not trying to be hostile towards anyone.
No, all I meant was that I used to (long ago) identify myself with that movement. So at least there's that. Then you have people who have never even considered it coming in and calling the whole thing racist or whatever, which then is really calling me racist isn't it? It's offensive man, I don't know what to tell you.
It's not that I know what to understand. Of course I don't. But I'm also not making blanket statements. My whole thing here is that I don't want to call an entire group racist, or implicate them in murder, just because of one man's actions.
But I see your point. It was worded too forcefully maybe.
I try not to make assumptions, just point out what I observe from what is essentially my point of view. Though I think it's kinda human nature to be a bit hypocritical sometimes.
For god's sake... I was quoting Romeo & Juliet, not cursing you with a disease.
I find it hard to believe you're a Libertarian in the philosophical sense, as you outright accused me of slandering people simply because I presented an idea you don't agree with. Freedom of thought is the bedrock foundation of Libertarianism. Impugning people who say things you don't like is lesson number one of partisan politics the world around. In my initial post, all I did was list facts, cite sources and describe the facts as a coincidental correlation. I didn't blame anyone or assign guilt for anything. Your reply of 'slander' is a response that's a hell of a lot closer to angry Republican than it is to open-minded Libertarian.
One of us in this discussion does have reason to be upset. I'd say who, but I don't want anyone to feel slandered by it.
It was in 2007 when we threw a money-bomb for Ron Paul for his presidential campaign. They had it on the same day as the Boston Tea Party. Was something like $6million donated that day, and it made the news. That's when Fox News and co paid attention. Then the following year, 2008, people threw other ones (having nothing to do with the RP campaign), some of which Fox News and Glenn Beck sponsored. That's when I wanted to have nothing more to do with it. It's 2011 now, so about 2-3 years since I've associated myself with it.
And I'm the one playing the victim yeah?
Let's just drop it dude. This is a video-game art forum after all.
Here's a link to an article about the shooter:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703667904576071191163461466.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Sounds more like a crazed loner.
Shouldn't have jumped to conclusions. We'll see how the facts sort out over time and getting all riled up to begin with is exactly the sort of political BS i was trying to denounce at the start.
His youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/u
Very fucked.... Need to listen to this guy speak in front of court..
After hearing what he did his youtube channel is just chilling...
All of his entries for hobbies etc are in past tense. o_0
How is a youtube suicide note more chilling than shooting a little girl to death?
Woah, not my words dude.
I certainly never said it was 'more' chilling, just adding the youtube videos hold more gravity once you have such terrible context to place them in...
His use of past tense implies he intended to die and it is sad no one could have known his intent earlier.
And for the record, the violent death of any child is about as dark as shit can get.