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Digipen - Thoughts, opinions?

So in 2007 when i graduated highschool i briefly considered trying digipen, but it didnt have the right program for me, and i figured it was just another shitty vocational school like ashmead college, ITT tech, etc.

So instead i've been trying to tackle a business management degree for almost 4 years. The plan was that between having a management background, and a sub par portfolio, or collection of game design documents, i could get hired as a game designer, level designer, or something similar. And if all else failed i would have a very generalist degree that could get me a job anywhere (what my parents were banking on)

Well, 25 credit hours of accounting, and some other shitty horrible classes later, i'm miserable and hate what i'm doing. Accounting and business math (page long word problems) are making me contemplate suicide (joke). These are not classes suited for someone who essentially half writer, half artist, and very creative.


Upon looking into digipen again however, they seem to have adopted the exact Bachelors degree i'm interested in.
DigiPen's Bachelor of Arts in Game Design (BAGD) is an interdisciplinary degree program that prepares students to become designers and artists for the electronic and digital entertainment industries. Graduates are well versed in game design theory, level design, artificial intelligence design, and general art skills.

this "degree" sums up almost exactly what i want to do, and i believe is perfect for me. But i have some questions:

1. digipen claims to be "DigiPen is accredited by the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges (ACCSC)" is this like a university being accredited or is it completely different?

1.1 the state and government provide financial aid for digipen, does that mean they are accredited?

2. will this degree help me get the job i want to do?

3. if it won't what will?

4. why is it so expensive (15k/year as of 2007)?

5. what is the placement rate into the industry from graduates?


probably more questions later, doctors appt now, thanks everyone.
Sorry if these questions and answers are already addressed throughout the forums, i did a few searches to no avail.

Replies

  • Yozora
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    Yozora polycounter lvl 11
    I think you've been here long enough to know the answer to whether the degree will be helpful and what will get you a job.

    Benefits of degree;
    Meet like minded people
    Networking with pros (depending on school)
    Living independently
    The large sum of money you spend on it could possibly be a motivational factor, "if I don't get a good grade then I'd have wasted $$$ and xxx hours of my life

    Benefits of no degree;
    You save 15k/year.

    Its expensive because people who don't know any better would gladly pay that much for it. I'm surprised that you bought that summary. To me, it looks like they just threw in a bunch of long words in there to make it look impressive.
    Placement rate is roughly 1% or less within the first month of graduation, maybe 2% after that. But who cares about statistics, just be awesome and you'll get a job.


    note: my numbers aren't based on facts... just a rough estimation based on my own experience and what I've read as a graduate within the UK... If you want to make your own estimation for your country, count the number of game-design/art related courses, multiply that by the average number of graduates per course, divide that by 15% of all the game companies in the country because the other 85% of game companies aren't looking to recruit you.
    Unless you're awesome.
  • stoofoo
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    stoofoo polycounter lvl 18
    This thread will eventually devolve into "digipen xusors suxsux." Before that happens, however, I'd like to instill a couple of things.

    A degree does not mean a job. Really. Don't really care what school you go to. This ESPECIALLY pertains to game art. What means EVERYTHING, though, is your willingness to spend the appropriate amount of time to do the job you are interested in. Time investment is the most important thing you can give. Digipen IS mad expensive and their placement numbers are no better than any other college doing similar. Degree != job.

    Another note: Generalist degrees like that bachelors outlined there rarely give you enough focus to really take one part of the greater good and do it to death. The odds of you doing all of those bullet points at any one job on any one game is almost zero. Unless it's budget titles, it's just not reasonable. If you want to do levels, do levels. If you want to do characters, do characters. Make a portfolio that speaks to the people that you want to work directly with.

    What is it you ACTUALLY want to do in games? Or are you not quite sure yet?
  • Muzzoid
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    Muzzoid polycounter lvl 10
    All i know is digipen keeps putting out solid student games :D!

    http://igneousgame.com/
    http://solacegame.com/

    " The odds of you doing all of those bullet points at any one job on any one game is almost zero"

    At smaller studios like where i work thats not true. Ive been a solo artist on the last 2 projects >_>.
  • stoofoo
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    stoofoo polycounter lvl 18
    Solo artist. But do you do AI? Design theory?
  • Mark Dygert
    I don't know about other compasses but Digipen in Wash St is... not for art at least not yet. Programing sure you bet go for it! But after their art program imploded when the teacher spear heading the program retired. At that point it was thoroughly passed up by just about every other school out there, yes even the AI's. They're hard at work rebuilding and expanding it, but its no where near worth the money, yet, for art.
  • Muzzoid
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    Muzzoid polycounter lvl 10
    Ah didn't realist the course was completely generalist and wasn't split into programming and art :/.
  • Ben Apuna
    I was listening to an episode of TIG Radio a while back, or was it Games Industry Mentor...

    Anyway IIRC one of the developers there was saying how he was meeting with a "game design" student from some college or other. The conversation went something like this:

    Developer: So your interested in game design?

    Student: Yup, Game design is awesome! :)

    Developer: So what games have you made?

    Student: ...I got these class assignments I did...

    Developer: You mean your not developing your own ideas and making any of your own games?

    Student: No...

    In the end the developers message was that if you're truly interested in a career as a game designer you should be making your own games on your own time beyond any school projects etc. Especially considering all the low cost and free development tools out there, like Game Maker and Unity.

    /2cents
  • praetus
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    praetus interpolator
    Let me break down some game school info on you. I went to Full Sail in 2002 and here are some things I've learned since then. Almost everything I use as a 3D modeler I learned within the first three months of school. Not to say I didn't learn more or that I regret my choice to go there, however, it all comes down to how much work you put in and how good you are. A degree in this field more often that not is just a piece of paper with your name on it.

    Also, it's not hard for a school to get accredited. What you need to make sure of is can those credits be transferred or used at any other school in case you drop out or decide to pursue further education later. Full Sail was accredited but that didn't mean shit to a community college in my area. That degree I paid $40k for, means nothing to them. With as much as you've put into your school why not finish what you've started as a fall back or change you major to something art related that can help you in this industry?
  • Ferg
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    Ferg polycounter lvl 17
    I graduated from digipen in 2004, but the staff, curriculum and facilities were all completely different then. I got an AA, which they no longer offer. If you dont mind spending the money, it's actually a pretty decent game art school now, compared to the others (and compared to what it was when I went... the first two years are now purely fine art).

    If you want a programming degree, it's one of the best for getting into games. I don't know anything about their "game design" department. You don't need a degree to make $40k a year or whatever it is designers make these days. Only go there for pure art or pure programming. You can learn to be a designer while working as a tester.
  • achillesian
    stoofoo wrote: »
    What is it you ACTUALLY want to do in games? Or are you not quite sure yet?

    I want to write the game design document, outline the story, do early concepting, block out levels and describe gameplay, hire the art team, make calls on art direction, influence the musical process by making my own melodies and sample pieces of similar music, help during various crunch milestones with lesser art, help with art the budget or schedule didn't have time for (pages turning on god of war 3 save books).

    Basically I want to do what John Romero has done, what Cliff Blizenski has done, and what Brad McQuaid has done, but do it better. All three of these designers started as programmers, and now as they currently function in the industry are just "idea men" this is great, but I think they could be doing more.

    I basically want to be a "Super Designer"
    But I don't think this position really exists in the AAA game companies does it?
  • achillesian
    so... 2 possible outcomes.

    1. finish my current degree Bach. business management

    2. make a portfolio (that shows my abilities as a backup, or crunch artist)

    3. make a game (that shows my ability to design something fun and/or fresh)

    4. ?

    5. profit!

    or

    1. finish my current degree Bach. business management

    2. make a portfolio (that shows my abilities as a backup, or crunch artist)

    3. make a game (that shows my ability to design something fun and/or fresh)

    4. manage a local McDonald's when I can't get a game design job.

    5. profit!



    Thanks for the input btw guys, guess you're just verifying everything I already knew. The most difficult part of this process is finding programmers with passion for games, most programmers I've met or know of just like the challenge, and aren't particularly interested in what field its in. I get this vibe from Carmack, as well as my 2 programmer friends I've been trying to make stuff with for 3 years now. I think I'm eventually just going to have to buckle down and figure out how to program unity or Gamemaker for myself.
  • Autocon
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    Autocon polycounter lvl 15
    what is a backup or crunch artist?

    also you really need to deiced if you want to be a designer or an artist. Trying to do both will just lead you to be bad at two things instead of good at one. Sure maybe down the road you could switch from design to art or the other way around but your not going to be a game designer (meaning designing mission structures and such) while also being an artist (3d/fx/or animator).

    Its bad enough most pay for schools force you to do general game design classes as it makes you work on a thousand different things you will never use instead of letting you focus on one thing to be the best at that.


    your little "super designer" thing that you want to be dosnt exist at all unless you are pretty much the sole person making a game. The people you listed dont even do half of the things you listed. the closet thing to what you described would be the creative director of a project. they oversee everything, all aspects of it, BUT the higher you go in position to a lead roll in any discipline the less and less work you actually do get to do and the more management of others to do that work will be your primary focus.

    The people you listed as "idea men" are the creative directors of there projects. They oversee every aspect of it from the start to the end. They have very little hands on time with the project. They spend most of there time in meetings, with producers, seeing how the game is progressing, more meetings followed by more meetings. They are also some of the hardest working people from what I have see at a studio as there is really never down time for them. When crunch time for programmers end its art turn to crunch, then cinematic, then animation, then fx, then test. The entire project for them is crunch mode really.


    Come to the realization now that you will never get to do all those things you want at anything but an extremely small studio and not for quite a while until proving yourself after years of experience and you will be better off.
  • Ben Apuna
    I think traditionally or at least all the game designers I know of or have met personally have had a strong background in programming, some take it a step further and also have strong art skills too. I've also heard that exceptional skill with MS Excel is a huge plus when it comes down to the fine tuning of some types of games.

    Now, with Unity and Gamemaker you don't need all that much programming to get a prototype up and running which I think is what a game designer really needs to do. I believe that we might start to see the rise game designers that come from non-traditional backgrounds because it's becoming so easy to put together a game.

    There are many tutorials available here that might help you get started if you haven't already done so.

    It sounds to me like what you want to be doing is "indie" game development or at least work in a smallish company where you can have more input in many areas.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    Design doesn't involve art or programming but if you are going to make a game yourself you're going to have to wear some extra hats.

    Gamasutra seems to have alot of game design articles and challenges here at Gamecareerguide
  • Kewop Decam
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    Kewop Decam polycounter lvl 9
    depending on what kind of designer, some actually need to know how to script, which is programming
  • Snacuum
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    Snacuum polycounter lvl 9
    hey achillesian

    I am basically after the same thing you are: Game Design. I only come here because I am capable of producing art (no matter how laughably bad it may be) and because it's a truly great community.

    I recommend going to this website and reading what this designer has to say. http://www.sloperama.com/advice.html
  • crasong
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    crasong polycounter lvl 13
    Not to hijack the thread here, but since this topic exists...

    Digipens BSGD is something I am interested in, and being a Singaporean in Singapore, I could very well go for the one here. Now whether a degree is worth it or not doesn't concern me as much as what criteria I need as a foreigner to be able to get a job overseas. Be it the US, Canada or the UK, I hear it's not easy getting in, and that studying in any of those countries would respectively make things a bit easier.

    But so far this is all heresay, and I have two compulsory years of army service starting sometime next year. So I'd like to know what the situation is like now, and how much I really need to achieve academically to comfortably work wherever I'd like.
  • acc
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    acc polycounter lvl 18
    I want to write the game design document, outline the story, do early concepting, block out levels and describe gameplay, hire the art team, make calls on art direction, influence the musical process by making my own melodies and sample pieces of similar music, help during various crunch milestones with lesser art, help with art the budget or schedule didn't have time for (pages turning on god of war 3 save books).
    You want to be an indie developer.

    Problem is, you either need to a) be able to do everything yourself or b) have lots of money to hire people with. If neither (a) or (b) applies to you then it's time to face reality and pursue a job that actually exists in a studio.

    Important note about Digipen: If you go there they own you and everything you create. I was right next to the Solace team at PAX this year and it's incredibly tragic that they have this fantastic game that should really be up for sale right now and it's not because they have absolutely no ownership of it. Digipen just takes everything.

    On the other hand, they have a successful, accomplished game on their resumes.
  • Kewop Decam
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    Kewop Decam polycounter lvl 9
    acc wrote: »
    You want to be an indie developer.

    Problem is, you either need to a) be able to do everything yourself or b) have lots of money to hire people with. If neither (a) or (b) applies to you then it's time to face reality and pursue a job that actually exists in a studio.

    Important note about Digipen: If you go there they own you and everything you create. I was right next to the Solace team at PAX this year and it's incredibly tragic that they have this fantastic game that should really be up for sale right now and it's not because they have absolutely no ownership of it. Digipen just takes everything.

    On the other hand, they have a successful, accomplished game on their resumes.
    FIEA, which is a school like Digipen, lets the students have 100% ownership of all their games and encourages them to get the game on shockwave, XBLA, Steam, ect.
  • Karmageddon
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    Karmageddon polycounter lvl 7
    Ferg wrote: »
    I graduated from digipen in 2004, but the staff, curriculum and facilities were all completely different then. I got an AA, which they no longer offer...

    Who are you :D We must have been in the same class. I switched to the BFA so we only had the first year together.



    As to this post, I'm in the first graduating class of the BFA in 2008, worked there for a year as a CG TA til I recently quit (on good terms). I don't have much to say about the design program being that I never worked in that area and at the time that it was around the campus was split into two buildings. It's all now in a brand new building so things have changed.

    I'd really recommend the gritty details about the program that you call someone from the front office. Angela Kuegler is a good bet on someone to get ahold of in these matters. main line: 866-478-5236

    If you live in the area I'd highly recommend you not only take a tour but request to be a shadow student and have someone show you around and sit in on their classes with them.


    If you wish to speak to students, there was a livejournal community:
    http://community.livejournal.com/digipen/ But it seems to have been dying over the years since this was made prior to facebook. My neighbor is a Bagger too but I've not yet met him to be honest.




    You get what you put in is the bottom line. Some students were at school every night til the security guard kicked them out at midnight and other students just goof off and take the 5-6-7-8 year plan or flunk (or get academic probation). Getting in isn't the hard part, staying in is. Having a degree doesn't entitle you to anything but if it helps you get to your end goal, just make sure that it's worth it to you. It IS an expensive decision, but I frankly don't regret doing it (yet).
  • TH98
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    TH98 polycounter lvl 12
    Sorry to bump this, but I noticed the Digipen games seem to emphasize concept primarily--is it a good school for people interested in modeling/animation as well, or is it chiefly for designers and programmers?
  • Snowfly
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    Snowfly polycounter lvl 18
    The local Digipen (Singapore) has a solid 4-year animation program that tell me is the same course structure they use over in the US. This is the info you're looking for: https://www.digipen.edu/academics/degree-programs/digital-art-and-animation/

    I got to tour their campus, see the first term student work, and it seemed to me they were delivering on their goals so far. They really put a lot of emphasis on traditional (life drawing, acting, animation with a PENCIL) before you ever fire up a computer, and from thereon forward they drill methodology into you to make sure you can handle real world production when you get out, and basically flex your creativity around the method.

    That said, 4 years is kind of a slow burn but if you've got time and money for a traditionally grounded CG education I'd say go for it.

    And waitaminnit...I thought Achillesian said he was already going to Digipen??? WTF.
  • m4dcow
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    m4dcow interpolator
    FIEA, which is a school like Digipen, lets the students have 100% ownership of all their games and encourages them to get the game on shockwave, XBLA, Steam, ect.

    FIEA is part of UCF and they most definitely own the rights to everything created there. There haven't been issues yet because nothing super popular has come out of FIEA. It is why we weren't able to use cryengine 3 last year for our capstones because Crytek required First Rights to anything we created and UCF was not okay with those terms. This is the case of most curriculum at large universities though.
  • Joshua Stubbles
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    Joshua Stubbles polycounter lvl 19
    My education (no joke)
    - Polycount
    - CGChannel
    - Dan Ablan and Jeremy Birn books
    - Any online tut I could find

    A degree is nice to have but guarantees nothing. Your work is either good or not, regardless of how you've been educated. It's a personal decision on how to be educated, depending on what style and environment best suits you.
  • ceebee
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    ceebee polycounter lvl 14
    I'm a student at Gnomon right now, but I wouldn't recommend it to Game Designers. For game designers I would recommend moddb, UDK, and Unity, and any documentation you can find on those two engines. The majority of the work should be done on your own time, with or without a team.
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