Arizona's new immigration law

13
polycounter lvl 7
Offline / Send Message
moof polycounter lvl 7
http://totalbuzz.freedomblogging.com/2010/04/23/arizona-gov-signs-tough-immigration-law/34131/

Yech. Is it just me or is this law just a way of racial profiling legally?

The authorities have the authority (:D) to deport illegals regardless, if they're found out. This is a way to simply allow cops to grab people on the street and demand papers. The only people they're gonna grab are latinos no doubt... because the only mandate to grab someone on the street is... how they look, what they're doing, right? The only thing that would stand out in the criteria for illegal immigrant are things Latinos engage in, since they're the most visible group of illegal immigrants.

Thus it's just racial profiling.

I mean say what you will about illegal immigration, but this is a bad precedent concerning enforcement...

I don't like it :P Thoughts?

Replies

  • ElysiumGX
    It's about time. If you have proof of your citizenship on you (license, SSN), like most Americans should have...what have you got to worry about?

    If you're living in a small apartment with 13 of your cousins, then maybe you should worry. Leave Arizona.
  • Asherr
    cue poop-rage and thread lock in 5... 4... 3...
  • Ryan Clark
    I see a serious unintended consequence to this law. It's going to make immigrants afraid to talk to cops.

    They'll be scared to report crimes. So they won't report crimes. So more bad guys will stay on the streets.

    I foresee a huge spike in crime among Arizona's immigrant community as bad guys figure out that Latinos won't call the cops.

    Arizona may see a decline in illegal immigration, but they'll also see a spike in theft, rape, and other serious crimes.

    As a practical matter, we should encourage people to report crimes to the police. Even illegal immigrants. Because otherwise, the cops can't do their job.

    That's why we have immigration law enforced by a separate organization. It really is a sensible policy.
  • low odor
    Offline / Send Message
    low odor polycounter lvl 11
    Papers Please! So if a cop doesn't like the way you look..and you happen to have left the house without your wallet..they can detain you...yeah this isn't gonna be abused.
  • TomDunne
    ElysiumGX wrote: »
    It's about time. If you have proof of your citizenship on you (license, SSN), like most Americans should have...what have you got to worry about?

    If you're living in a small apartment with 13 of your cousins, then maybe you should worry. Leave Arizona.

    Hey, that's a great idea. But I'm worried about tying something like that to a driver's license - what if it gets lost or stolen? Maybe we should let proof of citizenship be easier to track by making all the Latin types get tattoos on their forearms. Oh, and we could put them all in camps, too, so that if we see one out on the streets at night, we'll know he's somewhere he doesn't belong. If you're a real American, what have you got to worry about?
  • Mike Yevin
    Offline / Send Message
    Mike Yevin polycounter lvl 7
    Ryan Clark wrote: »
    I see a serious unintended consequence to this law. It's going to make immigrants afraid to talk to cops.

    They'll be scared to report crimes. So they won't report crimes. So more bad guys will stay on the streets.

    Haha, just FYI if your living in Arizona illegally your not going to have any reason, nor will you want to talk to any police officer.

    I've lived here my whole life and this doesn't upset or bug me one bit. I agree with ElysiumGX, if you always carry around your license which all legal residents do for the most part, then you have nothing to worry about. It's not like this law gives cops the right to just reach into everyones pockets, you gotta look like your doing something wrong to even get talked to by cops anyway.
  • Peris
    Offline / Send Message
    Peris polycounter lvl 11
    ElysiumGX wrote: »
    It's about time. If you have proof of your citizenship on you (license, SSN), like most Americans should have...what have you got to worry about?

    I basically never carry this on me, don't have driver's license and was advised not to carry my Social security card with me because of identity theft :s
    Pretty disgusting law imo! But I guess being white I don't have to worry when traveling to Arizona,,,
  • Ryan Clark
    Mike Yevin wrote: »
    If your living in Arizona illegally your not going to have any reason, nor will you want to talk to any police officer.

    Believe it or not, illegals do get robbed / raped / etc. from time to time. We want them to report such things. So that thieves and rapists get removed from the streets.

    Also... you've lived in America your whole life without ever learning to spell the word "you're?"

    I'm not buying it, Mike. That's basic English vocabulary. You're an immigrant trying to be sneaky, aren't you?
  • adam
    Offline / Send Message
    adam polycounter lvl 12
    Peris wrote: »
    I basically never carry this on me, don't have driver's license and was advised not to carry my Social security card with me because of identity theft :s
    Pretty disgusting law imo! But I guess being white I don't have to worry when traveling to Arizona,,,

    Then get an ID card and carry that on you?
  • Gav
    Offline / Send Message
    Gav sublime tool
    Yeah, I don't carry any US ID on me - but I am intending on getting my MA driver's license soon. There are a few things you need first in order to get a DL, I assume it would be the same for a state specific ID? Like proof that you live there...

    I'm glad that it's not like that in MA, as I don't really carry any US info on me. That being said, I barely even j walk and generally try not to look suspicious...though, I am waiting for a cop to bug me because of my tats.
  • Grimm_Wrecking
    Offline / Send Message
    Grimm_Wrecking polycounter lvl 8
    moof wrote: »
    http://totalbuzz.freedomblogging.com/2010/04/23/arizona-gov-signs-tough-immigration-law/34131/

    The authorities have the authority (:D) to deport illegals regardless, if they're found out. This is a way to simply allow cops to grab people on the street and demand papers. The only people they're gonna grab are latinos no doubt... because the only mandate to grab someone on the street is..

    Actually, there is a problem with Chinese illegal immigration in the valley as well :thumbup:

    Though for the most part they're shipped over with the promise of a better life and then forced to work in "massage parlors". Big problem in mesa specifically off and on.

    Although I find it some what funny that they passed this law considering that (in mesa as a specific example) the courthouse's cleaning crew was entirely comprimised of illegal aliens that were arrested and deported by sheriff joe a couple years ago in a big raid.

    Maricopa sheriff's office and Mesa PD had a standoff in tactical gear and ar15's, because the good sheriff failed to inform the mesa city offical's or police department that black masked, bodyarmored men carrying automatic weapons would be raiding the courthouse in unmarked black vans... (edit: at midnight-2am)

    Say what you will about the man & the bill, but thats some funny shit (the pd vs pd standoff).

    edit: from next post...
    Police Chief is actually being investigated by the FBI for ties to White Supremacist groups

    Apache Junction had in 2004 one of the highest concentrations of Aryan Brotherhood in the nation....wouldn't surprise me.
  • javi
    Offline / Send Message
    javi Polycount Sponsor
    Just makes me glad I'm not in America, being of Latin decent, I have gotten harassed at the border, being called the "token Mexican". When I'm not Mexican, but my parents are Salvadorian, and I'm Canadian. When I brought this up, he told me,"its all the same south of the border to me".

    This is really gonna blow up in their faces, the Police Chief is actually being investigated by the FBI for ties to White Supremacist groups. This is actually a lot like what Nazi's did with requiring people to show proof of linage, just really sad.
  • Ryan Clark
    An American doesn't need ID except when driving a car or concealing a weapon.

    We've never had a requirement to carry ID in this country. Americans can go anywhere in public without any sort of papers.
  • snake85027
    Offline / Send Message
    snake85027 polycounter lvl 11
    People are nuts, you guys act like every cop we have here in Arizona is white.

    This is what happened to me while delivering pizza.
    This guy came out with a gun and pointed it at my head and all I had to give him was 3 dollars and two large pizzas and he tells me," dude, do you fucking think I'm playing?"as he shoots the ground, maybe if this happened to you, you would feel differently! If cracking down on drug smugglers and criminals coming across the boarders is helped by this law, I am all for it. If you don't like it, get real and stop living in some fantasy world where everyone holds hands and sings Christmas carols.
  • JordanW
    Offline / Send Message
    JordanW sublime tool
    snake85027 wrote: »
    People are nuts, you guys act like every cop we have here in Arizona is white.

    This is what happened to me while delivering pizza.
    This guy came out with a gun and pointed it at my head and all I had to give him was 3 dollars and two large pizzas and he tells me," dude, do you fucking think I'm playing?"as he shoots the ground, maybe if this happened to you, you would feel differently! If cracking down on drug smugglers and criminals coming across the boarders is helped by this law, I am all for it. If you don't like it, get real and stop living in some fantasy world where everyone holds hands and sings Christmas carols.

    I somehow believe stuff like you described happens whether there's illegal immigrants here or not.
  • Gallows
    Offline / Send Message
    Gallows polycounter lvl 7
    I'm from Houston, immigration may be a concern but most of the people I know and have worked with are just like a ton of other people I know. As for all this talk of mugging and crime, well someone who runs drugs in any country is probably going to be an asshole. And same with someone mugging you, it's not so much a problem of immigration more than it is a problem on gun control.

    Also I'll keep believing in the world that sings Christmas carols and holds hands. Because I'd rather be hopeful and right one day than jaded and right all the time. Fuck that.
  • Ryan Clark
    snake85027 wrote: »
    If cracking down on drug smugglers and criminals coming across the boarders is helped by this law, I am all for it.

    I expect this law is going to do the opposite.

    When janitors and maids are hiding from ordinary cops, it'll be easier for drug smugglers and criminals to hide among them.

    It's smarter to have immigration enforcement and ordinary crime enforcement handled by separate agencies. There's a reason why the other 49 states do it that way. Arizona is making a mistake.
  • Martin Henriksson
    Offline / Send Message
    Martin Henriksson polycounter lvl 9
    Harassing people based on race is good because i got mugged once!

    I dont quite follow.
  • snake85027
    Offline / Send Message
    snake85027 polycounter lvl 11
    That's true Jordan and I understand that but if we have tougher laws here to prevent people even the chance to commit a crime, then why not do it? Am I saying mugging or any type of crime will completely end because of this law, no, I am just saying if it helps prevent someone from being robbed or shot or smuggled or whatever, then I am for it.
  • snake85027
    Offline / Send Message
    snake85027 polycounter lvl 11
    49 other states are not Arizona, get real.
  • moof
    Offline / Send Message
    moof polycounter lvl 7
    Drug crimes and criminal enterprises are born by bad drug policy. This law will not eliminate that growing threat, simply because it doesn't address the root problem: drugs are illegal, and Americans want them.
    It's about time. If you have proof of your citizenship on you (license, SSN), like most Americans should have...what have you got to worry about?

    I remember this sort of thing being said about the patriot act.
    Giving more power to authorities seems to lead to more abuse, and not much to solving the issues at hand. Criminals adapt, citizens get abused.

    I'd also point out that states setting their own immigration laws will lead to all sorts of issues between state borders. The last thing we need are undocumented people roving the country avoiding the authorities and changing laws. A standard should be set, and legislation more relevant to the root problems that are bringing illegal immigrants to the states in the first place.

    This is just reactionary legislation that only tries to sooth over people who prefer militant stances on how to deal with this issue.
  • snake85027
    Offline / Send Message
    snake85027 polycounter lvl 11
    I never said harassing people by race is good, if someone is doing something suspicious, you damn straight I want to make sure they belong here.
  • snake85027
    Offline / Send Message
    snake85027 polycounter lvl 11
    so Moof, what would you do?Make all drugs legal?
  • Ryan Clark
    snake85027 wrote: »
    so Moof, what would you do?Make all drugs legal?

    Why not? We could save a few billion dollars... make life easier for taxpayers and junkies both. It's win-win.
  • MattQ86
    Offline / Send Message
    MattQ86 polycounter lvl 8
    Well Snake, that would take a lot of money out of the pockets of cartels, help control the quality and dosages so people would get sick and overdose, the courts police and lawyers could spend the time and money to deal with real crime like violent offenders, we could ease some suffering for AIDS and cancer patients and we would be preventing non-violent offenders from being put in jail and put on a path toward more serious and life ruining crime...

    then again it would really make the next season of Breaking Bad kinda boring.
  • snake85027
    Offline / Send Message
    snake85027 polycounter lvl 11
    Also someone please help me out. I am an American and as far as I know if I try to live in any other country Id be expected to get a visa or some kind of sponsorship to live there. Which is great and understandable.

    But for some reason everyone else in the world believes that America should just say fuck our security and our boarders and just open our arms to everyone. Makes me sick.
  • konstruct
    Offline / Send Message
    konstruct polycounter lvl 12
    Ryan Clark wrote: »
    Why not? We could save a few billion dollars... make life easier for taxpayers and junkies both. It's win-win.


    plus the funds that would be going into the black market, would be going straight into the economy. thats a quad win win.
  • low odor
    Offline / Send Message
    low odor polycounter lvl 11
    but then we might turn into a cesspool like Amsterdam

    [ame]
  • oXYnary
    Offline / Send Message
    oXYnary polycounter lvl 13
    moof wrote: »
    Drug crimes and criminal enterprises are born by bad drug policy. This law will not eliminate that growing threat, simply because it doesn't address the root problem: drugs are illegal, and Americans want them.
    .


    Dont forget NAFTA which has put American corps in Mexico paying very low wages at best. The number one income for Mexico is drugs. Lets see.. work for slave pay, or run drugs for a cartel? Live life short, but with lots of money, or slightly longer but worn out? Hmm. What would you choose?

    For any that applaud this, stop smoking your pot (if imported or worse drugs), and convey to the US government to make a better treaty and relax drug policies. Otherwise you pretty much come off as ignorant hicks crying about "Jerbs" and "crime" without doing anything to address the issues of why.

    Putting your hand up at the border turning everyone back going "la la la la" is not going to do anything, except make things worse.
  • Ryan Clark
    Jesus Christ, Snake. It's "borders." B-O-R-D-E-R-S.

    How do you have so many opinions about something you can't spell?
  • javi
    Offline / Send Message
    javi Polycount Sponsor
    snake85027 wrote: »
    Also someone please help me out. I am an American and as far as I know if I try to live in any other country Id be expected to get a visa or some kind of sponsorship to live there. Which is great and understandable.

    But for some reason everyone else in the world believes that America should just say fuck our security and our boarders and just open our arms to everyone. Makes me sick.
    Honestly, nobody has said that the borders should be unprotected. However what I am saying, I do not agree with the way Arizona is going about this.
  • MattQ86
    Offline / Send Message
    MattQ86 polycounter lvl 8
    Maybe he's really angry about our country's surfing laws?
  • snake85027
    Offline / Send Message
    snake85027 polycounter lvl 11
    I agree a little bit with what you both are saying, Ryan and Matt, I just wouldn't like the idea of over exposure. Sure if a junkie wants their drugs he or she will get it and sure if your son or daughter decided to try drugs just once because its cool, they will do it. But why have drugs like meth and coke at every street corner legally?What message will that send?Lets say you make it legal, whats to stop people from still creating drugs illegally out of their house?
  • MattQ86
    Offline / Send Message
    MattQ86 polycounter lvl 8
    I could go buy 10 Tylenol from a walgreens and OD right now. I'm not doing that am I?
  • konstruct
    Offline / Send Message
    konstruct polycounter lvl 12
    then there's this thing with cheap affordable labor being a backbone to our economy.
    Its a tricky issue- Just like any issue that plagues politics, Closing the borders might solve some issues, but it would also stir up a whole other set of problems.
    But why have drugs like meth and coke at every street corner legally?What message will that send?

    I`ve never thought meth or coke should be legalized, but there's something about that I`d like to see played out. Natural selection is an interesting thing.
  • javi
    Offline / Send Message
    javi Polycount Sponsor
    I'm just going based on what I've seen else where. But if you make it legal you really cut the profit out of it. It also cleans up the streets, because you will not have the "seedy" part of town where you can only buy drugs.

    If they want to create the drug in their own home, I guess they are free to do so, however what would be the point if you can go anywhere to get it legally, and cheap.
  • MattQ86
    Offline / Send Message
    MattQ86 polycounter lvl 8
    Right, and then the only people entering our country illegally for reasons other than "killed a guy in Canada" would likely be day laborers making so little money they wouldn't be paying taxes anyway...

    ...not that it would stop the Glenn Becks of the world from complaining about it.
  • snake85027
    Offline / Send Message
    snake85027 polycounter lvl 11
    Good call Ryan, you get the scrabble award!
  • Mark Dygert
    Harassing people based on race is good because i got mugged once!
    I dont quite follow... the sarcasm in your statement.
    Fixed.


    As for the rest of the topic. Its just posturing because its an election year and everyone who votes is really freaked out by all the violence a few miles south. It's crazy down there right now and very close to spilling over. I'm not for "book it cus its brown" but politicians do what politicians do, blow hot wind every time they're up for election.

    This will get thrown out by that big mean president and his "Department of Justice" as they look out for those pesky "civil liberties". But they'll have a good talking point to use against him. "See we tried to do something but he's soft on immigration!"

    I wonder how many miles of fence and trenches the could have built with all the money going into Iraq and Afghanistan...

    Fear, its a bitch... get your sense of reason back America, asap.
  • MattQ86
    Offline / Send Message
    MattQ86 polycounter lvl 8
    I think he was actually paraphrasing snake's argument in a sarcastic way....

    In fact I would say he is displaying a perfect understanding of sarcasm.

    sarcasm_detector.jpg
  • Ryan Clark
    snake85027 wrote: »
    Lets say you make it legal, whats to stop people from still creating drugs illegally out of their house?

    Lack of profit motive.

    Because when adults can buy drugs from a licensed pharmacy, the street-corner peddler loses 90% of his customers. So most street peddlers go out of business.

    In the current system, kids can buy drugs easily because black market vendors are commonplace.

    Legal distribution would make it harder for kids to buy drugs, because Walgreens isn't going to sell coke to a twelve-year-old.
  • Gav
    Offline / Send Message
    Gav sublime tool
    MattQ86 wrote: »
    "killed a guy in Canada"

    Cough....Cough.....xnay on the killan Caned ey....
  • Jeremy Wright
    I'm not reading a single post in this thread, and I'm not coming back to it after I post this, but I feel like I need to state this:


    There is no method for quantifying whether some looks "like a ciitzen". What's to stop a cop from asking for id from anyone they want for no other reason than:
    1. you look like trouble (tats and piercings)
    2. you are a minority
    3. they are having a shitty day
    This isn't about illegals, it's about giving up more of our privacy for the spectre of security.

    You want to stop illegals? Punish the crooked corporations that employ them. What good does it do to send them back just so they can be smuggled in or cross the border themselves?

    This happend about 20 miles from where I live. You know what's changed? Not shit. Everybody's to scared to prosecute Howard, so some chump in human resources or some shit took the fall. The first time I went to the Walmart in Laurel I was fucking shocked at all of the Mexicans. I had no clue there were so many. 2,000 Mexicans (they also work in the chicken plant, and other factories around here and that is probably a low figure) didn't just sneak there way up to Laurel, Mississippi; they are bussed here by the companies they work for who KNOW they are hiring illegals. The companies are able to get away with it easier here because of the lack of unions in MS.

    TLDR > Quit blaming the Mexicans looking to make money for their families and start getting mad at the companies that are really behind this problem and that profit by selling out their own country and putting illegals throught these hardships.
  • mickyg
    Offline / Send Message
    mickyg polycounter lvl 7
    I like the guys on the news defending this by saying that cops will still use their discretion and make intelligent decisions...

    The problem is that cops, like all professions, are going to have good and bad apples. The power that these new laws will invest in all cops is what is most troubling to me.

    The good cops will continue to be good cops, the bad ones now will have more ways of being bad.
  • 00Zero
    thats why I always carry my passport, birth certificate, drivers license, and a snapshot of me highfiving the president at all times.
  • moof
    Offline / Send Message
    moof polycounter lvl 7
    snake85027 wrote: »
    so Moof, what would you do?Make all drugs legal?

    Not exactly.

    I think prohibition taught us a lot about drug policies and how they should be enforced.

    First, just because you choose to indulge in something that other people for whatever reason find morally reprehensible, that, by no means gives anyone the authority to take you away and lock you up- unless you're hurting someone by doing such thing.

    Drugs don't hurt anyone but yourself... why do we throw people in jail for that?

    Second, criminal activity, gangs, and crime all skyrocket every time a drug is made illegal. We create a system that gives rise to all sorts of bigger problems by making drugs illegal. That's a waste of time, money and resources, and hurts society as a whole.

    Third, drinking alcohol skyrocketed during prohibition. There is no correlation with illegality and a drop in useage; it's the opposite in fact.
    So why make it illegal?



    We're so used to these things being illega' that we haven't stopped and thought about why they should be illegal anymore. I think when people stop and look at the data, and really think about it, they'll come to the same conclusions. People don't go do more drugs because they're legal. Crime doesn't start because drugs exist, it starts because something is made illegal so that criminals can exploit it. Throwing people in jail for using drugs is morally reprehensible for us, not them.

    Black markets can't operate when everything is in the light, legal and regulated.

    So yes, I'd make drugs legal, but like beer and tabacco, and through agencies like the FDA, I'd regulate them to the extent that is needed.
  • EarthQuake
    Ryan Clark wrote: »
    An American doesn't need ID except when driving a car or concealing a weapon.

    We've never had a requirement to carry ID in this country. Americans can go anywhere in public without any sort of papers.

    I dont know, unless you're under the age of 18, most people have even a photo id so that they can buy cigarettes, booze get in to strip clubs etc, i think the % of people in this country who do not have a DL, or an ID of any sort on them at all times is very very VERY small. And if any of you whackos on here do not carry an ID, you should, so that when you're ran over by a bus they can easily identify you and inform your family.
  • PeterK
    Offline / Send Message
    PeterK polycounter lvl 13
    To prove you are citizen of the United States, you must show us ONE of the following:
    So, basically, your normal driver's license is not good enough. You need the "enhanced" ones. I can't believe I share a forum with so many people who support this bigot Nazi crap of a Law.
  • low odor
    Offline / Send Message
    low odor polycounter lvl 11
    but you have the right to be a wacko if you like...the gestapo won't come to your house and demand to see your papers...it's not practical...but it's legal
  • moof
    Offline / Send Message
    moof polycounter lvl 7
    Valid Enhanced Driver License/ID Card from a U.S. state other than Washington.

    wtf is an 'enhanced driver license'?

    From the looks of that list, most people would have some trouble proving themselves a U.S. resident on the street..
13
This discussion has been closed.