Graphic Design Hero: Tells off Craigslist
polycounter lvl 18
Saw this on Digg, thought you guys would like to see it, quoted below:
[ QUOTE ]
Every day, there are more and more Craigs List posts seeking artists for everything from auto graphics to comic books to corporate logo designs. More people are finding themselves in need of some form of illustrative service.
But what theyre NOT doing, unfortunately, is realizing how rare someone with these particular talents can be.
To those who are seeking artists, let me ask you; How many people do you know, personally, with the talent and skill to perform the services you need? A dozen? Five? One? none?
More than likely, you dont know any. Otherwise, you wouldnt be posting on craigslist to find them.
And this is not really a surprise.
In this country, there are almost twice as many neurosurgeons as there are professional illustrators. There are eleven times as many certified mechanics. There are SEVENTY times as many people in the IT field.
So, given that they are less rare, and therefore less in demand, would it make sense to ask your mechanic to work on your car for free? Would you look him in the eye, with a straight face, and tell him that his compensation would be the ability to have his work shown to others as you drive down the street?
Would you offer a neurosurgeon the opportunity to add your name to his resume as payment for removing that pesky tumor? (Maybe you could offer him a few bucks for materials. What a deal!)
Would you be able to seriously even CONSIDER offering your web hosting service the chance to have people see their work, by viewing your website, as their payment for hosting you?
If you answered yes to ANY of the above, youre obviously insane. If you answered no, then kudos to you for living in the real world.
But then tell me why would you think it is okay to live out the same, delusional, ridiculous fantasy when seeking someone whose abilities are even less in supply than these folks?
Graphic artists, illustrators, painters, etc., are skilled tradesmen. As such, to consider them as, or deal with them as, anything less than professionals fully deserving of your respect is both insulting and a bad reflection on you as a sane, reasonable person. In short, it makes you look like a twit.
A few things you need to know;
1. It is not a great opportunity for an artist to have his work seen on your car/zine/website/bedroom wall, etc. It IS a great opportunity for YOU to have their work there.
2. It is not clever to seek a student or beginner in an attempt to get work for free. Its ignorant and insulting. They may be students, but that does not mean they dont deserve to be paid for their hard work. You were a student once, too. Would you have taken that job at McDonalds with no pay, because you were learning essential job skills for the real world? Yes, your proposition it JUST as stupid.
3. The chance to have their name on something that is going to be seen by other people, whether its one or one million, is NOT a valid enticement. Neither is the right to add that work to their portfolio. They get to do those things ANYWAY, after being paid as they should. Its not compensation. Its their right, and its a given.
4. Stop thinking that youre giving them some great chance to work. Once they skip over your silly ad, as they should, the next ad is usually for someone who lives in the real world, and as such, will pay them. There are far more jobs needing these skills than there are people who possess these skills.
5. Students DO need experience. But they do NOT need to get it by giving their work away. In fact, this does not even offer them the experience they need. Anyone who will not/can not pay them is obviously the type of person or business they should be ashamed to have on their resume anyway. Do you think professional contractors list the experience they got while nailing down a loose step at their grandmothers house when they were seventeen?
If you your company or gig was worth listing as desired experience, it would be able to pay for the services it received. The only experience they will get doing free work for you is a lesson learned in what kinds of scrubs they should not lower themselves to deal with.
6. (This one is FOR the artists out there, please pay attention.) Some will ask you to submit work for consideration. They may even be posing as some sort of contest. These are almost always scams. They will take the work submitted by many artists seeking to win the contest, or be chosen for the gig, and find what they like most. They will then usually have someone who works for them, or someone who works incredibly cheap because they have no originality or talent of their own, reproduce that same work, or even just make slight modifications to it, and claim it as their own. You will NOT be paid, you will NOT win the contest. The only people who win, here, are the underhanded folks who run these ads. This is speculative, or spec, work. Its risky at best, and a complete scam at worst. I urge you to avoid it, completely. For more information on this subject, please visit www.no-spec.com.
So to artists/designers/illustrators looking for work, do everyone a favor, ESPECIALLY yourselves, and avoid people who do not intend to pay you. Whether they are spec gigs, or just some guy who wants a free mural on his living room walls. They need you. You do NOT need them.
And for those who are looking for someone to do work for free please wake up and join the real world. The only thing youre accomplishing is to insult those with the skills you need. Get a clue.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Every day, there are more and more Craigs List posts seeking artists for everything from auto graphics to comic books to corporate logo designs. More people are finding themselves in need of some form of illustrative service.
But what theyre NOT doing, unfortunately, is realizing how rare someone with these particular talents can be.
To those who are seeking artists, let me ask you; How many people do you know, personally, with the talent and skill to perform the services you need? A dozen? Five? One? none?
More than likely, you dont know any. Otherwise, you wouldnt be posting on craigslist to find them.
And this is not really a surprise.
In this country, there are almost twice as many neurosurgeons as there are professional illustrators. There are eleven times as many certified mechanics. There are SEVENTY times as many people in the IT field.
So, given that they are less rare, and therefore less in demand, would it make sense to ask your mechanic to work on your car for free? Would you look him in the eye, with a straight face, and tell him that his compensation would be the ability to have his work shown to others as you drive down the street?
Would you offer a neurosurgeon the opportunity to add your name to his resume as payment for removing that pesky tumor? (Maybe you could offer him a few bucks for materials. What a deal!)
Would you be able to seriously even CONSIDER offering your web hosting service the chance to have people see their work, by viewing your website, as their payment for hosting you?
If you answered yes to ANY of the above, youre obviously insane. If you answered no, then kudos to you for living in the real world.
But then tell me why would you think it is okay to live out the same, delusional, ridiculous fantasy when seeking someone whose abilities are even less in supply than these folks?
Graphic artists, illustrators, painters, etc., are skilled tradesmen. As such, to consider them as, or deal with them as, anything less than professionals fully deserving of your respect is both insulting and a bad reflection on you as a sane, reasonable person. In short, it makes you look like a twit.
A few things you need to know;
1. It is not a great opportunity for an artist to have his work seen on your car/zine/website/bedroom wall, etc. It IS a great opportunity for YOU to have their work there.
2. It is not clever to seek a student or beginner in an attempt to get work for free. Its ignorant and insulting. They may be students, but that does not mean they dont deserve to be paid for their hard work. You were a student once, too. Would you have taken that job at McDonalds with no pay, because you were learning essential job skills for the real world? Yes, your proposition it JUST as stupid.
3. The chance to have their name on something that is going to be seen by other people, whether its one or one million, is NOT a valid enticement. Neither is the right to add that work to their portfolio. They get to do those things ANYWAY, after being paid as they should. Its not compensation. Its their right, and its a given.
4. Stop thinking that youre giving them some great chance to work. Once they skip over your silly ad, as they should, the next ad is usually for someone who lives in the real world, and as such, will pay them. There are far more jobs needing these skills than there are people who possess these skills.
5. Students DO need experience. But they do NOT need to get it by giving their work away. In fact, this does not even offer them the experience they need. Anyone who will not/can not pay them is obviously the type of person or business they should be ashamed to have on their resume anyway. Do you think professional contractors list the experience they got while nailing down a loose step at their grandmothers house when they were seventeen?
If you your company or gig was worth listing as desired experience, it would be able to pay for the services it received. The only experience they will get doing free work for you is a lesson learned in what kinds of scrubs they should not lower themselves to deal with.
6. (This one is FOR the artists out there, please pay attention.) Some will ask you to submit work for consideration. They may even be posing as some sort of contest. These are almost always scams. They will take the work submitted by many artists seeking to win the contest, or be chosen for the gig, and find what they like most. They will then usually have someone who works for them, or someone who works incredibly cheap because they have no originality or talent of their own, reproduce that same work, or even just make slight modifications to it, and claim it as their own. You will NOT be paid, you will NOT win the contest. The only people who win, here, are the underhanded folks who run these ads. This is speculative, or spec, work. Its risky at best, and a complete scam at worst. I urge you to avoid it, completely. For more information on this subject, please visit www.no-spec.com.
So to artists/designers/illustrators looking for work, do everyone a favor, ESPECIALLY yourselves, and avoid people who do not intend to pay you. Whether they are spec gigs, or just some guy who wants a free mural on his living room walls. They need you. You do NOT need them.
And for those who are looking for someone to do work for free please wake up and join the real world. The only thing youre accomplishing is to insult those with the skills you need. Get a clue.
[/ QUOTE ]
Replies
It is pretty ridiculous what people think they can get away with, and a lot of times do, when it comes to artists. For example, my boss wants to hire another artist here for minimum wage... He wants someone with highly specialized skills to work here for what some 15 year old kid makes flipping burgers. It's ridiculous.
Problem is this shit happens because there are still plenty of talented young kids that fall for these kinds of scams.
I am amazed though at how often you guys reference bad pay/treatment in the industry. This was a career path I considered when I was a teen, but chose not to follow and it makes me glad I didn't. I'm going to stick with my electronics/programming path and just design as a hobby
I am amazed though at how often you guys reference bad pay/treatment in the industry. This was a career path I considered when I was a teen, but chose not to follow and it makes me glad I didn't. I'm going to stick with my electronics/programming path and just design as a hobby
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a post from a freelance graphic designer. Most people here work as 3D artists in the videogame industry. I don't see the relationship.
I simply reply stating that a model will cost £500 untextured, £750 textured, and texturing an existing model will be £300.
99% of the time I get an incredulous reply along the lines of "WTF!!!111 it are onyl a moddel! LOL! ARE you serious!"
Yes. Yes I damn well am serious. Take the time involved, the revisions, the usually poorly defined brief and hence more revisions. How long will that take me? What is a good hourly rate?
The UK minimum wage is £5.35 - that's what unskilled workers get (and unfortunately in too many places skilled people also). Can an unskilled person make the model and texture? No.
The hourly rate for a plumber, electrician, mechanics?
Which? researchers found the typical rate for plumbers is £30-50 for the first hour, £25-40 for subsequent hours. A junior barrister earns £32 per hour for preparing court documents.
I've got a full time job, it pays me well. I don't want to spend my free time making artwork for money. I want to spend my time actually enjoying my life, so you need to compensate me for that if you want me.
Hey, I'll be generous. £25 an hour. How does that sound? Lets do a good job on this - I'll take 40 hours, a normal working week. You do know how long it takes don't you? That's £1000. Of course, I'll have to pay tax on that, and since it comes in on top of my normal salary that's a hefty chunk.
Am I ripping you off. Yes, you probably think so.
I'll be honest, my original email reply method was design to scare people away, and if I get asked again, I'll ask for double that. I have no interest whatsoever in filling my freetime with more computer art.
There isnt a direct correlation between a graphic designer and a 3D artist.
I think there is a common misconception that graphic design is easy. I think it's because it's difficult for untrained or visually unsensitive people to estimate how much work and knowledge goes into good solid graphic design.
If you look at a painting or a drawing, you can definitely point out that it took time, effort, knowledge and physical skill. Graphic design, however is a murky field for most people. Graphic design is a way of communication and translating ideas/information in a creative, comphrehensible and visually exciting way. Unfortunately everyone and their grandmother owns a mac these days making them automatic graphic designers. And just because it looks so easy to layout some type and connect a few vector anchors in Adobe Illustrator then it must be easy!
In short, graphic designers are undervalued because they are not considered Fine Artists.
I say this because I am now on the verge of finishing a degree in graphic design at an art college. In fact i think i should have gone into illustration all along
Edit: Echoing Rick here too... With the use of computers the public appears to think that things get done at the click of a button... A computer makes everything accessible to the most untrained and uninformed person, making them more ignorant.
I've been in a few situations like that myself, and it's hard to make people understand.
Ahh the infamous "make art" button..
[ QUOTE ]
I am amazed though at how often you guys reference bad pay/treatment in the industry. This was a career path I considered when I was a teen, but chose not to follow and it makes me glad I didn't. I'm going to stick with my electronics/programming path and just design as a hobby
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a post from a freelance graphic designer. Most people here work as 3D artists in the videogame industry. I don't see the relationship.
[/ QUOTE ]
What I left out of that statement was that I thought the industry would pay more because of the talent involved btw... after rereading my statement, it didn't appear as I meant it to.
Anyways, I tend to group computer graphic design together. It's probably not correct for me to group them together, but I understand what you're saying. I was considering either direction what I was a teen (art teacher and computer teacher got together to try pusing me in the industry). I do understand that digital graphics are different than 3d designs though
Whilst I agree that the average 3D artist salaries are too low, with certain stars aligned it's perfectly possible in either profession to earn very good money.
I'm glad you made the right choice for you, but it's not necessarily all doom and gloom.
'the industry'? So do you now mean videogames or graphic design, or are you still putting them both in the same basket?
Whilst I agree that the average 3D artist salaries are too low, with certain stars aligned it's perfectly possible in either profession to earn very good money.
I'm glad you made the right choice for you, but it's not necessarily all doom and gloom.
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Same basket... The way I see it is, most graphic artists start off the same way, with scribbles in notebooks as teens. Then you go to school for graphics and at some point you choose to go into gaming, digital art, or non-digital (I'm generalizing here
Don't mean to offend you if I was Daz
What's the difference between doing a job for little pay and sitting around making portfolio pieces on polycount? Both options suck, really. But one looks better on a resume and might net you some cash.
There are so many flaws in the logic of this article its ridiculous.
1. It's not really a great opportunity for either of you. What a stupid attitude. You're not great, I'm great! Na na na nana naaaaah!
2. First off, being insulting and clever is not mutually exclusive. Unfortunate as it is, those qualities tend to go very well together. If you can get someone to work for free, that's pretty smart, whether it makes you a total jerk or not.
Secondly, McDonald's doesn't give much in the way of useful skills for anything in the real world. Practicing making art does, and it relates directly to one's career. There is a difference there.
3. It's not "their right" and if the market doesn't work that way then it isn't really "a given", now is it? Here's another tip: People who think that everything is "their right" are generally bad news.
4. Again, completely assuming that everyone has no trouble finding work at all. Yup, easy pie. I just walk outside and well paying work falls right into my lap. That's why I do jobs for free, because I have so much great work just waiting for me!
5. Another false assumption. Poor pay does not mean the job won't look good on a resume and it does not mean that it won't provide experience. Just like good pay does not mean it will look good on a resume and that it will provide good experience. He's suggesting that volunteering is inherently bad at providing experience.
6. It's a complete scam (true) so... visit my website!
How about instead of writing stupid, illogical, elitist plugs for your website we just actually help people find better work? Wouldn't that be nice?
I don't think the essay relies so much on logic as it does on experience. He is not saying it HAS to be that way, but only that it is that way, which my experience confirms.
Hmmm? Aren't we assuming that every person out of school can find plenty of well paid work? People wouldn't take these jobs in the first place if they already had better ones.
What's the difference between doing a job for little pay and sitting around making portfolio pieces on polycount? Both options suck, really. But one looks better on a resume and might net you some cash.
There are so many flaws in the logic of this article its ridiculous.
1. It's not really a great opportunity for either of you. What a stupid attitude. You're not great, I'm great! Na na na nana naaaaah!
2. First off, being insulting and clever is not mutually exclusive. Unfortunate as it is, those qualities tend to go very well together. If you can get someone to work for free, that's pretty smart, whether it makes you a total jerk or not.
Secondly, McDonald's doesn't give much in the way of useful skills for anything in the real world. Practicing making art does, and it relates directly to one's career. There is a difference there.
3. It's not "their right" and if the market doesn't work that way then it isn't really "a given", now is it? Here's another tip: People who think that everything is "their right" are generally bad news.
4. Again, completely assuming that everyone has no trouble finding work at all. Yup, easy pie. I just walk outside and well paying work falls right into my lap. That's why I do jobs for free, because I have so much great work just waiting for me!
5. Another false assumption. Poor pay does not mean the job won't look good on a resume and it does not mean that it won't provide experience. Just like good pay does not mean it will look good on a resume and that it will provide good experience. He's suggesting that volunteering is inherently bad at providing experience.
6. It's a complete scam (true) so... visit my website!
How about instead of writing stupid, illogical, elitist plugs for your website we just actually help people find better work? Wouldn't that be nice?
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I wrote a big long response and replied to each of your points and decided. Dude. You just find out for yourself.
I think there is a common misconception that graphic design is easy. I think it's because it's difficult for untrained or visually unsensitive people to estimate how much work and knowledge goes into good solid graphic design.
If you look at a painting or a drawing, you can definitely point out that it took time, effort, knowledge and physical skill. Graphic design, however is a murky field for most people. Graphic design is a way of communication and translating ideas/information in a creative, comphrehensible and visually exciting way. Unfortunately everyone and their grandmother owns a mac these days making them automatic graphic designers. And just because it looks so easy to layout some type and connect a few vector anchors in Adobe Illustrator then it must be easy!
In short, graphic designers are undervalued because they are not considered Fine Artists.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can only second that.
For the last 13 years I've put my time into both 3d stuff and graphics design. I work as a graphics designer (both print & screen) and still do some 3d graphics from time to time. And if there is one thing that hasn't changed in all these years then it's that sooner or later people will try to tell you that it's for your own good if you work for them for free. Teenagers are ripped off because they don't have a clue, students are ripped off because they don't have a master or something like it, graduates are ripped off because they don't have five years plus experience - even professionals who have worked in this field for the last 20 years still get asked by 'customers' to work for free or at least do some previews for free.
It has happened to me more than once and it will happen again. I was once foolish enough to do such work and today I really feel stupid about it.
If there' one ting that students need to learn, it is that they don't need anyone to provide them a platform to do something for their resume - they are creatives and that's the one thing that they can do on their own.
I get emails to work on mods or "professional teams" for free and they want me to sign a contract which entitles me for some kind of royaltees afterwards, most of the time i either completely ignore it, or just politely refuse, because i simply don't have time for this shit. I did free stuff in the past when i couldn't do anything else, i worked on mods, i made websites for like $200. Its hard putting a price on this stuff unless you're good and people know and value your skills, otherwise almost always you will be underpaid or not paid at all and have to suck it up.