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TGI Friday's (environment)

polycounter lvl 17
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Serp polycounter lvl 17
Hi, this is my first environment, hopefully it will be easier to get into the industry than with character stuff. Any help on how I can improve it will be really appreciated.

5075 polygons. 14x 512 maps, 1x 1024 and 1x 512 by 256. Made in Max, no lights. the 1024 is the road. The model is based on a photo.

mainviewsmallersize6hw.jpg

texturessmallsize8db.jpg

doorview8er.jpg

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  • Manic
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    Manic polycounter lvl 18
    very nice, but why the 1024* for the road? Also, i know this will sound odd, but i don't 'read' ortho views as well as i do with perspective, and what's that light patch to the right of the door as you're looking at it?
  • Daz
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    Daz polycounter lvl 18
    It seems excessive in resource use to me, but I don't know what platform you're going for. Looks OK though. Perhaps a bit flat and clean. One thing I really don't like is the photographic restaurant interior. Particularly depicting obviously non animated people seems strange. Personally I'd consider representing that in a far more abstract way. Like an image that shows not much more than blurred lights and shapes. Sometimes less is more.
  • yeluis
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    yeluis polycounter lvl 17
    i dont like the mix matching your doing with the textures, i know they arent final but some seem pure color and others are straight up photographs, not a good contrast. Id get rid of thos pictures for the inside with people and just make the texture similar to the windows on the top. only hint at whats inside, dont spell it out entirely. it seems you are using a bit too many textures for what you have there. and it would really help it if you made the top windows a bit more individual each, not the exact same window everywhere. are you going to light it? or just keep it at diffuse level?
  • Rhinokey
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    Rhinokey polycounter lvl 18
    good work for first time enviroment work, i agree with the comments i've seen from others, but have a few more to add, watch your texture resolution, if you put a checkerboard material on your object all the parts that you can get close to, it should be about the same size checks all way across.. i see now that the door texture is super tiny when compaired to other bits of the texture, and theres a lot of other bits that look all randomly sized.

    to agree with something thats been mentioned.. the photos don't work well,, especialy if you can get any where near the object in game. it will be obvious its a flat texture with no real depth, i would go withthe typical grey blue glass, with a bit of rrelfection on it
  • Serp
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    Serp polycounter lvl 17
    I've used the modular aproach to create this building, but I now realised I applied the approach to the textures too. Which meant I had to keep them mundane looking or the tiling would be obvious. Now I've added more textures and I did the pavement again.


    secondstageoftgifridays0ta.jpg



    Here's a perspective view for Manicgrin.gif
    http://img466.imageshack.us/my.php?image=perspectiveview4kp.jpg

    And here's the new street which is 1024 x 256
    streetpic6hh.jpg
  • Rick Stirling
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    Rick Stirling polycounter lvl 18
    The pavement texture size is still overkill.

    Now, lets see a nice render with normal maps and spec maps. If you dont have them, you should. Why? Looking at theat environment, the poly could you have used and the texture sizes, I'm guess Xbox360 or PS3 for the platform, and with those platfroms the lighting does a LOAD of the work. So you'll be needing the bump and spec maps to describe the materials.


    Do you have a photo ref to work from? I ask that becase I don't belive a TGIs would look like that - the sighs would be much larger.
  • yeluis
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    yeluis polycounter lvl 17
    looking better, those bottom windows still need some loving
  • malcolm
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    malcolm polycount sponsor
    Perspective view is a must, never show 3d shapes in orthographic views. 1024x256 does not fly on ps3 or xbox360, textures still need to be a power of two. 1024x512 or 512x256 if you want rectangular textures.
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 19
    I have some vouchers for onion rings at TGI fridays.
  • lio
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    lio polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    1024x256 does not fly on ps3 or xbox360, textures still need to be a power of two. 1024x512 or 512x256 if you want rectangular textures.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sorry for this little off topic question but I always thought that "power of two" only concerned the width and height of a texture but not their relation to each other.
    Since 1024 is a power of two and 256 is a power of two I would have considered it a "proper" power of two texture?
    An extreme example I also would have considered to be a "proper" power of two texture would have been 2048x16 (yes, I know noone would do that smile.gif ) - have I been missunderstanding the whole concept of "power of two" all the time?
  • Serp
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    Serp polycounter lvl 17
    I reduced all the 512 textures to 256 and as you guys already knew there is no difference especially with the sharpen more filter. I did a render but I'm not sure about what's appropriate. I used a mental ray area omni with adv ray traced shadows. Here's the reference image


    I improved the lower windows aswell. and optimized the door area texture so it isn't as small.
    oslobrightshops92614828qh.jpg
    tgifridayswithshadow8ka.jpg
  • noritsune
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    noritsune polycounter lvl 17
    ah now I see where you're going with this, from the mayang. beware though, the link is busted, mayang redirects everything to her landing page.

    I have a couple suggestions, though it's definitely getting there:

    - the proportions of the grand orders (those two-story pilasters) and the windows are different from the actual building. the pilasters should be slightly wider, and the windows slightly more narrow. moreover, increase the width of the molding around the window substantially. nailing the proportions of a certain building's windows it absolutely key, since they read as the building's "eyes." along those lines, see if you cant duplicate the geometry that happens at the base of the lower row of windows, without creating another dedicated texture. I'm talking about how the molding branches outward to join the foot of the pilaster.

    - the raytraced shadows certainly add a bunch, but as long as you're going for a raytraced render, you should definitely throw a reflective material onto the windows. a subtle reflection of something blueish/greyish/nothing will go a long way.

    - last, take a closer look at the geometry that happens at the top of the building, through the entablature. here's a great diagram showing the front view and section of the corinthian order cornice, which this building is based off of: http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/us.capitol/kninety.jpg
    Make sure, as well, to line up those rectangular vents/windows (?) in the red part below the white cornice. they should align vertically with the window bays below.

    coming along though! looking forward to seeing even more development.

    ps: I'm rarely an advocate for increasing saturation and contrast in textures, but I think those striped awnings could use a little dose. smile.gif
  • yeluis
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    yeluis polycounter lvl 17
    very nice, your almost there. do the windows have spec? if not id sugest adding that and a reflection map.
  • Eric Chadwick
    Looks good.

    Seems you're missing the signs that jut out above the canopies, intentional?

    Can I see the wireframe please? I'm wondering about the tops of the pilasters.

    How many separate bitmaps? Seems to me you could pack quite a bit, maybe into a single sheet, unless the windows have reflection.
  • GLandolina
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    GLandolina polycounter lvl 17
    I really love environments and this is a great one,
    love to see some wires of it.
    looking fantastic tho, keep it up.
  • Paul Jaquays
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    Paul Jaquays polycounter lvl 18
    Pilasters need to be wider. Windows above shop level narrower. Restaurant windows in source are not ceiling to floor, but end in an architectural panel about table height. Shops windows need lots of love to be believed as glass, even before application of spec and bump. Blue sign lacks 'S'. The shaped sign hanging out over the street seems to be missing that distinctive Friday's logo type (though it is in your texture sheet). Overall, could use a bit more weathering and streaking ... a couple years of age.

    But ... really nice piece. Keep it going.
  • thnom
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    thnom polycounter lvl 18
    A small thing but you're yellow "American Bar" sign is in the wrong place, nudge it along one.

    Looking nice with limited reference - really nice job infact smile.gif
  • odium
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    odium polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    1024x256 does not fly on ps3 or xbox360, textures still need to be a power of two. 1024x512 or 512x256 if you want rectangular textures.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sorry for this little off topic question but I always thought that "power of two" only concerned the width and height of a texture but not their relation to each other.
    Since 1024 is a power of two and 256 is a power of two I would have considered it a "proper" power of two texture?
    An extreme example I also would have considered to be a "proper" power of two texture would have been 2048x16 (yes, I know noone would do that smile.gif ) - have I been missunderstanding the whole concept of "power of two" all the time?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    This is true. The width can be 2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096 and the height can be 2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096. It doesn't matter what order it goes in, 64x64, 128x2048, 4096x2, it doesn't matter, as long as both the X and the Y use one of these sizes, your fine. (Of course you can go higher, 8192, 16384, 32768, but your not gonna want to go higher than 4096 for a loooooong time)
  • odium
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    odium polycounter lvl 18
    The main problem i have with this piece is that it seems to be suffering from a odd pixel space issues. Its very easy to fix really.

    Take your texture, and fill it with a small black/white boxes. Just like a Chess Board. Stand back and take a look at how your model looks now. Your aim is to get the boxes to appear the same size all over, so that each area is in pixels pretty much the same. If you have a wall that uses a 512x512 texture and a small sign below that uses a 512x512 texture, sure it may look readable but its just a really bad eye soar. Keeping things like resolution consistent is one of the many things i love about design, and when things are not consistent it really hurts my eyes to look at. It just confuses me tbh, from both a design point of view and a visual point of view. Sure there will be times when you will have a big space on the texture that will be blank, but fill it with something else, another wal ltexture maybe to stop it repeating, something else. But try not to make things HUGE in res compared to everything else.

    There will be times that this can sometimes be ignored, a player texture for example will sometimes use a higher res texture for main areas of focus like the head, or chest. But for world textures it looks a lot better if you keep things consistent.
  • malcolm
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    malcolm polycount sponsor
    I've never worked on a game that allows 1024x256? Although I've heard of a few engines which support it, I think it might be something less common? Our current next gen project does not support these kind of textures.
  • Eric Chadwick
    Dunno. We use 1D textures here and there, basically for gradients, like 256x1. Works well for things like a fog falloff control. Otherwise we use all squares.
  • odium
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    odium polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    I've never worked on a game that allows 1024x256? Although I've heard of a few engines which support it, I think it might be something less common? Our current next gen project does not support these kind of textures.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Serious? Its not a game engine "feature" its more to do with how the image is handled GPU side. The reason you keep the extures power of two is so that they appear sharper because it wont convert them on the fly to the nearest power of two size. Every engine i've ever worked with has used this, any power of two size X any power of two size. Im sure your engine can too.
  • odium
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    odium polycounter lvl 18
    I know for a fact every id software title supports power of two textures. Most of the early games (Q1-Q3) had odd texture sizes like 366x700 and things, but that didn't mean they didn't work, it just means that they were not as sharp as everything else.

    Im sure its not an engine "features" but just "standards". You can do anything X anything, but keep it to power of two so that it loads faster and looks better,
  • malcolm
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    malcolm polycount sponsor
    Okay but if these resolution are supported but get scaled to the nearest power of two at run time, you are wasting texture space and potentially getting crappy looking art in game? A best practice would be to avoid strange shapes, I'm I wrong? I looked at the half life2 and doom3 textures and did not see any 256x16 in there.
  • Vailias
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    Vailias polycounter lvl 18
    the other big reason for using power of 2 textures is that they can be operated on using bitshifts rather than multipication or other arithmatic functions. That makes texture operations have far lower processing overhead.

    And just about every game engine I've ever worked with, and most that I know of support non square textures, so long as the dimension of each side is a power of 2.

    yes malcom you are incorrect. They are scaled usually via mipmapping (pre sampled and filtered) rather than runtime downsampling. http://www.3drender.com/glossary/mipmapping.htm

    They are scaled down to the next lower power of 2 however that doesn't make them square, it makes them 1/4 their original dimension.
    Ie a 512X128 samples to a 256X64 samples to a 128X32 etc ultimately down to a 4x1 as the lowest mip level.

    The reason people tend to stick with square textures is because they are easier to layout in a uv editor, and often the extra space is handy.
    Rectangular textures are still mapped from u0v0 to u1v1, so your uv layout is still square, but will appear distorted in one direction in the editor, However the texture with the non square res will be sampled across the uv square and will appear correctly on the mesh.
    Being as memory space is a concern, especially with consoles, if what you are textureing better fits a smal rectangle then better to use one than to force the same mesh into a square texture sheet.
  • odium
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    odium polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    Okay but if these resolution are supported but get scaled to the nearest power of two at run time, you are wasting texture space and potentially getting crappy looking art in game? A best practice would be to avoid strange shapes, I'm I wrong? I looked at the half life2 and doom3 textures and did not see any 256x16 in there.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Erm no you are wrong and totally din't read what i said.

    1024x16 is perfectly fine and will NOT get downsized to the nearest power of two. Because it already IS power of two.

    However 1000x18 WILL be downsized, because it is NOT power of two.

    The fact that Doom 3 doesn't use many textures like this means nothing at all, they just had a lot of need for Square tiles thats all.

    Trust me, its PERFECTLY fine for you to use a 4096x8 texture in a game if you want with ZERO scaling, and still be fine. Its got nothing to do with the engine, its got everything to do with the artist and if he actually NEEDS this shape texture.

    Paul posted in this thread and if he pops back up i'm sure he will tell you the same.

    (Doom 3uses many 64x2 size pics. So in other words if what your saying is true (And it isnt), that would also mean a 1024x32 texture is possible.)

    Its got nothing to do with anything. I could use a 1999x23 texture if i wanted and it would show up perfectly fine. However, it WOULD get downscaled to 1024x16 because its the nearest power of two. Using a 1024x16 texture on the other hand, will NOT be downsized as it already IS the nearest power of two texture size.

    You may need to do a bit of reading because a few of you dont 100% understand how textures are loaded.
  • odium
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    odium polycounter lvl 18
    Just to back up what Vailias is saying:

    http://panda3d.org/wiki/index.php/Choosing_a_Texture_Size

    "Most graphics hardware requires that your texture images always be a size that is a power of two in each dimension. That means you can use any of the following choices for a texture size: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, or so on (but unless you have a really high-end card, you'll probably need to stop there).

    The textures don't usually have to be square: they don't have to have the same size in both dimensions. But each dimension does usually have to be a power of two. So 64
  • Daz
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    Daz polycounter lvl 18
    Jesus, leave the poor guys thread alone.
  • Serp
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    Serp polycounter lvl 17
    I changed some things like adding reflection maps to the ground windows and added the red center columns and outside menus. The image seems a bit muddy though. I alos lowerd the texture size of some of the objects like the safety guards, carpets, signs. final6kt.jpg


    wires3tu.jpg
  • yeluis
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    yeluis polycounter lvl 17
    actually thats a lot higher poly thasn it looks. you have the back faces deleted and stuff? not really sure where all those faces are going torwards. Is this a wrap now? or what else you gonna do to it?
  • Vailias
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    Vailias polycounter lvl 18
    sorry for contributing to the derailment.
    Its looking really really good.
    One minor thing is the spacing between the awnings as well as the friday's branded gates/barriers. In the photo the gap between the awnings looks to be about half what it is in your model. The large "american bar" railings look like they could just use a stretch to touch the "fridays" railings next to them.
    Minor things, but it should push it to look even more like the photo.
    Also you could set up a camera to get a render with the same perspective as that ref photo. Could help the rest of us compare apples to apples. smile.gif Plus it would be fun to see just how close to life you have gotten.
  • Moz
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    Moz polycounter lvl 18
    the windows also look to wide in comparison to the source picture

    otherwise it looks very good.
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