Answered: Best way to create this as a texture?

Easton

Hi,

If I want to create this as a texture in Quixel NDO and DDO how would I do it? All I can think of is use an aluminum material on a tile in PS and then go into NDO and normal detail the grooves, but not certain if this is right. I think if I want to do this then I would have to go into Max or any modeling software, create a flat plane I guess in the 0,1 space, UV unwrap it and fit it in the space, then import it into DDO?

Synaesthesia

I'd suggest taking a look through my NDO tutorial:

https://quixel.se/tutorial/vehicular-hard-surface-detailing-using-quixel-ndo/

 You can create a texture like this using some simple rectangular vector shapes, an Emboss style, and a round curve. It should actually take no longer than 15 minutes to do the entire corrugated metal normal map, which you can then take into DDO and add all of the surface imperfections seen in the photo with some of the base metal normal layers.

No need to add a plane or a mesh to your NDO project - working meshless in any resolution up to 8k should be perfectly fine.

Easton

I see, then how would I make it tile well and not have seams sticking out? Would trying to make it tile hurt my normal details?

So I assume I would start in Photoshop with a 4096x4096 sized document if I want 4k and then go from there with the normal details? 

Also, I have one more question related to this project about the vent in the picture below. Modeling it would create too many polys for my purpose, but could I do this with normal details and make it look good enough, and if so how? 

Easton

I actually totally forgot there is an easier way for me to do all of this. I can use Substance B2M and just insert my image, it will take the normal details and everything else from it, then I can take it into Quixel and add my textures. I remembered seeing that somewhere then it hit me.

Still good to know I can just add normal details to create a texture, that will come in handy soon. 

However I am still not quite sure about the vent and the best way to add it in NDO...

edit: The B2M method may not actually work well in that case so NDO may be the best way.

Synaesthesia

I definitely wouldn't process this through a tool like that. You can process a flattened texture through NDO, too, but nothing compares to hand-building a normal using NDO instead of using a conversion.

Are you open to a Google Hangout on our private chat? It's located at http://hangout1.quixel.se - I'll gladly walk you through the steps you'd need to know to produce something indiscernible from that image, but as a hand-built normal map. Let me know when you're free, or better yet, just poke me on Facebook and I'll find the time to sit down with you.

Easton

I wish I could participate in Google Hangouts but my internet unfortunately wouldn't be able to handle it without multi second delays or breaking up. I guess I will have to fiddle with it until I get to what I am looking for, although it may take me hours instead of minutes because I am not very familiar with NDO yet.

Synaesthesia

Definitely try following my tutorial I linked earlier. It's super easy to make things like this entirely in NDO without any meshes whatsoever. I don't think you'd have an issue with a Hangout unless your net speed is something like sub-DSL - perhaps give it a try anyhow and see how it goes? At least you can say you tried, right?

The offer is open if you'd like one-on-one tutoring!

Easton

At home I wouldn't be able to, it is actually worse than DSL, like 15kbps and 2000 ping. Sometimes I move my PC to a place where I am able to access way better internet and I could then take you up on your offer which would be awesome. Next time I do so I may ask you a few days in advance if that's ok because I would love to do something like that, even if it cant be done that's fine and thank you for the offer.

Synaesthesia

Feel free to add me on Facebook if you have an account, and poke me around 11 AM EST to 6 PM EST. Or you can arrange it here, either way, I check both frequently!

Easton

I will definitely try to take you up on the offer some time!

I have one more question for you regarding Quixel, what is the Prepar3d preset in Quixel? The reason I ask is because I think it is the flight simulator that I am about to start developing for soon. I know the presets are like PBR or other maps that it bakes out for the engine it is going to but I am curious how that ended up there of all things.

Synaesthesia

Prepar3D is Lockheed Martin's version of Microsoft Flight Simulator X. We did a push a while ago to try and support a variety of engines, even obscure ones, so hopefully the P3D export does what you'd like it to! I know P3D is pretty locked down, at least from my understanding of it, so I haven't had a chance to test it yet.

Easton

Interesting. The whole reason of me learning game design in general was actually just for that simulator, while working in and learning Quixel NDO and DDO I kept seeing that and thought it was odd because compared to the other engines its listed by its not known about.

I haven't gotten to the point of learning any engines yet, doesn't it just create the maps for a PBR or specular workflow? P3D is definitely a pain, trying to read their engine SDK manual and understand it is ludicrously difficult to do. Same company that makes stealth fighters likes to keep their secrecy on the flight sim too

Synaesthesia

It's helpful that your friendly local Suite product manager grew up on Microsoft Flight Simulator in the 90s.

I'd look up information on how to develop addons for FSX. Custom scenery and aircraft model tutorials will likely work 100% with P3D.

Easton

Hi again Synaesthesia,

I recently had enough time to try to create that tileable texture, and when I started it I noticed the ends of the normal details don't extend past the map, how would I extend it out from the edges? Also, how would you recommend that I get the edges right to where it will be perfectly tileable? For instance the top part of it is quite off from the bottom. I've never actually used NDO this extensively before, usually I just used it to add a few smaller details, if I mess a tileable texture up just a little bit it will show badly. I am going to have to refine it more and add more details and better measurements but I need to try to find a solution for those issues first.

Thanks!

Edit: There is one more question, while trying to add textures how is that done if it is not a mesh, if it there is not a UV then how is the texture added?

Synaesthesia

Tiling is a matter of understanding how tiles function. There's tons of video content out there explaining how to make a tileable texture, but probably not as many for NDO. You need to define how many repetitions you want within the tile: essentially, how many corrugated pieces of metal need to be within your texture. To make it tileable, you need to make it tile within a power of 2. A 1024x texture divides in half by 512x. A 512x divides in half by 256x, and so forth. Try using Photoshop's grid tool to overlay a grid with spacing of 32 pixels per grid line. Align your corrugation to the center of each horizontal grid line, and extend the vector shape outside of the border by pressing CTRL+T with the vectors selected and hold SHIFT to drag the edges of the transform box outside of the texture canvas. That will make it tileable horizontally and vertically.

You're also in Sculpt Mode right now. Be sure you zip your layer or click Sculpt Mode again to leave it - your normal directions are incorrect with SM turned on.

As far as texturing goes, imagine the mesh is a square and you're painting your tileable details within that square. You work with both NDO and DDO within that square region to produce a tileable texture without a mesh - it's not as hard as it might sound! Here's an example of some DDO work I did recently as a tileable texture for the substation in my signature:

Easton

Ok, I have the other stuff down now, but am still stuck on actually adding the materials to the tile in DDO. When I go into DDO I try adding materials and nothing happens, and I cant paint on anything because it is not a mesh...

Synaesthesia

Is there a chance you could show me a video of your work process or schedule a time to sit in the hangout with me soon? I think we'll be able to resolve this in a few minutes if so!

Easton

sorry for the late reply, I will either try to post a video or maybe set aside a time within a couple weeks to do that. Been super busy with 18 hours of school and spring break around the corner, learning 18 hours worth of stuff that isn't even related to game design is killing my time management when it comes to learning texturing... 

Thanks!

Synaesthesia

Understood. I'm always around, you know how to reach me. Let me know when you're ready!

Best of luck with your studies!

Easton

Hi Synaesthesia,

 I can participate in a Google Hangouts next week sometime around the 12th-16th during my spring break for sure if I can still take you up on the offer. I don't know how much time it would take but if you would be able to show me how to quickly normal detail something like this and then add textures to it that would be great! In the meantime I will focus on learning NDO to get up to speed as much as I can.

When it comes to Quixel NDO and DDO the only questions I have are:

How to create the normal details and add the textures like above.

How to add a tiled texture in Quixel (Still not sure about how exactly that is done correctly)

I have not found out how exactly to export Megascans textures to use in DDO without screwing things up.

That's really about it. I know how to use Substance Painter but when it comes to some things in Quixel I am lost.

Whatever time is best for you during that week is best, 

Thanks!

Synaesthesia

Let me know when you're ready and I'll make some time for it.

Easton

Would you happen to have time today? I don't have a webcam though, I have a mic and two monitors, I am not sure how that works but I guess it is kind of like a screencast or something.

Edit: Any time after that works, I am not sure about what time zone you are in and what work hours you have. It would probably take less than 20-30 minutes

Synaesthesia

I'm in EST. Today and Friday are the last days I can assist with this for another week - I'll be in San Francisco for GDC from the 17th to the 24th.

Shall I meet you in http://hangout1.quixel.se in 30 minutes or so?

Easton

Hi, sorry I was away from my PC, I can do it now if that is okay.

Easton

I guess never mind, the link is sending me to a Google link that asks me to install the program and hangs on this: "You’ll enter the video call as soon as the plugin is installed"

Synaesthesia

At this point it might just be easier for you to send over what you've got, and I'll create a quick corrugated normal map that you could use as a learning example. Let me know if that's an idea that you're amenable to!

Easton

That is fine. 

I was trying to create a tin material like that of which is on a lot of older sheds:

Problem is I know how to build the basic shape of it as a normal detail but not so much as to how to get the edges right so that it is tiled. How would I find out where the midpoint or edge of the normal detail is? I assume for a tiled texture like this I would want to cut the exact center out of one of the extruded parts so that it is tiled.

Would you be able to explain the best you can in text how to add textures to the normal detailed tiled texture in 3DO? Anytime I try to add textures to my new tiled texture 3DO gives me an error message. Basically when I am done creating the normal details and it is ready for texturing, what next? Because everything I have tried doesn't work, all I need to do is add a metal texture for the base material.

Synaesthesia

If you want the edges to tile seamlessly, simply free transform the shapes you're working with beyond the Photoshop canvas by about 25 to 100 pixels on each side.

Once you're done with normal detailing, you simply load the flattened normal map (e.g. save as Targa) into DDO with/without a mesh to preview it on. Additional maps like AO will help, but aren't necessary.

Easton

Okay, I think I have it down now. .I added some normal details to a NDO file and then went into DDO with it and added the textures, I did not realize that to view the textures you would have to go into 3DO.

Now my question is, when I go into DDO with my normal map, how would I save it and turn it into a material that is ready for use within Quixel DDO in the material selection? 

I guess when I finally get to that point I just add the normal detailed tin material with its galvanized metal textures then scale the UV so that it looks like it fits properly?

Synaesthesia

Save all aspects of the material that you plan to use - albedo, AO, normal, roughness, gloss, specular, etc. Load that into DDO's custom material import via the DDO menu.

Easton

Thanks! 

How would you create something like this though?

I don't see any way to make the outer edges of the larger extrusions that pronounced or wide. Is there a way to stretch out the angled part to make it more wide?

Easton

I made it already! That's so cool!:D 


Does that look right? I measured it the best I could so I think it is tiled correctly, I will have to put it on a model soon and see...

Is there any other way that you could see this particular texture to be improved upon? Would you leave it just like this or would you change the normal details somehow?

It only took me over a month but it was so worth it haha, thanks!

Synaesthesia

Get with me after GDC on Sunday and I'll take a look at this file for you! The Internet here at my hotel is spotty at best, so I'd have difficulty downloading any attachments right now.

From what I can see of the image, it looks like a great start to a material - keep at it!

Easton

Okay. In the meantime would you happen to know how to export DDO materials? Like the entire library?

 Its just that I already know Substance Painter and trying to learn Quixel DDO is just more of a headache, if I can use NDO extensively, then export my Normal maps to Substance, make textures in NDO, DDO, and Megascans then it will save me a lot of time and stress of not having to learn a new program that I am not familiar with.

I would have had the entire building textured by now if I had the materials in Substance, I am just way more comfortable in it.

Synaesthesia

Smart Materials in DDO cannot be exported for use in other programs. DDO's base materials can be exported, but you need to create a blank project and export each material one-by-one. There is no batch export. So, unfortunately, I cannot assist you with this part of your query. We don't provide support for using our materials in other toolsets - the materials in DDO are designed for use with DDO. 

Easton

When you say import it into DDO do you mean through this:


And where and how would I save this?

It is already in DDO I just need to save it as a material to be used on models, after I saved it I looked through the materials and did not see it...

Synaesthesia

There's a material import button located at the top next to the "Save Smart Material" button, or within the DDO menu itself.

Easton

I got it! Thanks!

I have one more question regarding DDO, how do you add a paint layer? This is a really stupid question I know but I went through a video tutorial on DDO as well and did not see or missed adding a paint fill layer.

Easton

Also, when I added the new material to a mesh it did this:

It is supposed to be perfectly tiled, I think I did everything right, and the normal detail that it shows me looks fine but I get this weird texture?

I must have done something wrong when I created the tiled normal but I don't know what...

Synaesthesia

What's weird about that image?

Easton

Those faint normal details or height map details or something, they are not supposed to be there and aren't there on the tiled texture I made, they only showed up after importing it into DDO

Synaesthesia

If you applied any material in DDO to your project, you'll see that material's normals overlaid on yours.

Easton

Well, apparently it was an issue with me making a normal map to view it on, and when I did that, no matter how many times I tried it, it would show up with this particular material, even if I started in NDO with a blank slate, went into DDO and added grass this material would come up...

Apparently this is concrete:



But when I went into Max and made a wall, put it into DDO I got a perfect wall like I wanted:



Not sure about that, I know somehow I screwed something up.
Thanks!

Edit: Now that I have these maps made in Custom, how do I delete them?

Synaesthesia

You'll need to go into your custom folder to remove them. This should be something addressed in Suite 3 and will be a lot easier to work with going forward.