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Optimal monitor size question

Rockatansky
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Rockatansky vertex
Do you guys think that a 21.5 inch monitor is big enough?

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  • Axi5
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    Axi5 interpolator
    No, 24" minimum for me and even then I want bigger. Budget problems?
  • Rockatansky
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    Rockatansky vertex
    Sorta. Building a new PC. What about IPS?
  • Axi5
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    Axi5 interpolator
    Not incredibly necessary unless you're doing intense colour work or know you'll be viewing it from the side a lot. It can actually be beneficial to avoid IPS monitors since they're fairly known for "IPS glow" in the cheaper range.

    TN panels these days are usually high quality with a fairly big field of view before the colours start to distort. Just be sure to check the reviews.
  • Rockatansky
  • EarthQuake
    IPS or equivalent is highly recommended. TN panels might be better than they used to be but they still suck. I would say color accuracy is fairly important to anyone doing artwork, and moving your head a bit and getting color shift sucks.
  • endeffect
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    endeffect polycounter lvl 8
    perna is right about this. Everybody told me 40" 4k monitor will be too big before i buy one. I mostly use the screen divided for different applications or floating menus when i need them, and i love using houdini and unreal engine on bigger space.

    When i use 3ds max full screen on %100 scale, upper menus would be far to easily reach, but i'm mostly shortcut person and that doesn't affect me much. It's really fun for me to use it. It's all about you. Don't care much about other people experiences especially when it comes to "size", just try yourself.
  • Rockatansky
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    Rockatansky vertex
    I can't spend more than 150 euros, and I've already found a monitor that does the job for me. Look up BenQ GL2580HM TN 24.5".
  • Obscura
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    Obscura grand marshal polycounter
  • Rockatansky
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    Rockatansky vertex
    @perna
    Making 3D characters. I'm in high school and at the end of next year, they'll set up a presentation for me to show off my skills to some employers. Not many people in my country go for 3D, so I doubt it will be really demanding.
  • EarthQuake
    perna said:
    IPS or equivalent is highly recommended. TN panels might be better than they used to be but they still suck. I would say color accuracy is fairly important to anyone doing artwork, and moving your head a bit and getting color shift sucks.
    Here we go :blush:
    A lot of people keep their chair in roughly the same spot and then viewing angle is not a problem. You shouldn't buy a product based on specs but based on the real-world user experience.

    I got rid of my 3rd monitor recently as it wasn't strictly necessary. The choice was between a TN or IPS of exactly the same DELL monitor. I got rid of the IPS, because it had worse blacks than the TN and a yellow tint. Both are common issues with IPS panels. The TN viewing angle is not great but it's sufficient.

    Don't trust anyone who simplifies it down to the letters in the panel name. All panels have pros and cons. Just research the individual monitors which fit your needs and budget. If the panel looks good, it looks good, regardless of specs. If reds look green or it has bad contrast you will see that with your eyes, you don't need nerdy jargon to make your mind up at that point. By the way, there's more than just TN and IPS.
    Yeah I mean the best case is to actually see a monitor in person before you buy it. That said, TN panels generally suck if you care about color accuracy and consistency (some people don't seem to notice or care about TN color shift), this is not based on "specs" but extensive personal experience. There is a range with TN panels but it generally runs from absolutely terrible to sort of okay. If sort of okay is good enough for you, that's great! But a monitor is something I typically tend to use for around 8 or so years, and look at 8+ hours a day, so it's worth getting something that is good quality even if you have to spend a bit more.

    Also yes, IPS is not the only alternative to TN, and there are a variety of types of IPS (S-IPS, H-IPS, etc) panels, but it does tend to be the most common panel type used by artists who care about color accuracy, and for good reason. These days you generally have to go out of your way to find a VA panel.

    In the budget range you're typically looking at e-IPS with a 6-bit FRC, which is a cheaper to produce panel but still generally better than TN, unless you have very specific requirements like very high refresh rates or very low latency, both of which tend to be strong points of TN panels. e-IPS panels tend to have very good viewing angles and good, but not exceptional color reproduction. I have a cheap-ish 23" Dell e-IPS as my secondary, which is noticeably better than any TN panel I've ever seen or used.

    The "well just don't move your head" argument is dumb as hell. What if you shift your posture? What if you want to show someone else something on your screen? What if you want to sit in a more comfortable chair and watch a movie? What if you have multiple people sitting in different areas watching a movie? Bad viewing angles suck and there is no reason to tolerate them in 2017. Entry level IPS panels no longer cost $500.

    Here are a number of IPS (almost certainly all e-IPS) 24" monitors under $200: https://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=ips+24"&N=8000 4017&isNodeId=1

    It's worth noting that a 24" 1920x1080 panel doesn't make much sense, usually you can get a 22.5" or 23" 1080p panel for a bit less, all 24" gives you at this resolution is bigger pixels. I would go for 1920x1200 min in a 24" panel but that tends to put you into the mid-range which is targeted more towards professionals (usually $350+).
  • Rockatansky
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    Rockatansky vertex
    perna said:
    IPS or equivalent is highly recommended. TN panels might be better than they used to be but they still suck. I would say color accuracy is fairly important to anyone doing artwork, and moving your head a bit and getting color shift sucks.
    Here we go :blush:
    A lot of people keep their chair in roughly the same spot and then viewing angle is not a problem. You shouldn't buy a product based on specs but based on the real-world user experience.

    I got rid of my 3rd monitor recently as it wasn't strictly necessary. The choice was between a TN or IPS of exactly the same DELL monitor. I got rid of the IPS, because it had worse blacks than the TN and a yellow tint. Both are common issues with IPS panels. The TN viewing angle is not great but it's sufficient.

    Don't trust anyone who simplifies it down to the letters in the panel name. All panels have pros and cons. Just research the individual monitors which fit your needs and budget. If the panel looks good, it looks good, regardless of specs. If reds look green or it has bad contrast you will see that with your eyes, you don't need nerdy jargon to make your mind up at that point. By the way, there's more than just TN and IPS.
    Yeah I mean the best case is to actually see a monitor in person before you buy it. That said, TN panels generally suck if you care about color accuracy and consistency (some people don't seem to notice or care about TN color shift), this is not based on "specs" but extensive personal experience. There is a range with TN panels but it generally runs from absolutely terrible to sort of okay. If sort of okay is good enough for you, that's great! But a monitor is something I typically tend to use for around 8 or so years, and look at 8+ hours a day, so it's worth getting something that is good quality even if you have to spend a bit more.

    Also yes, IPS is not the only alternative to TN, and there are a variety of types of IPS (S-IPS, H-IPS, etc) panels, but it does tend to be the most common panel type used by artists who care about color accuracy, and for good reason. These days you generally have to go out of your way to find a VA panel.

    In the budget range you're typically looking at e-IPS with a 6-bit FRC, which is a cheaper to produce panel but still generally better than TN, unless you have very specific requirements like very high refresh rates or very low latency, both of which tend to be strong points of TN panels. e-IPS panels tend to have very good viewing angles and good, but not exceptional color reproduction. I have a cheap-ish 23" Dell e-IPS as my secondary, which is noticeably better than any TN panel I've ever seen or used.

    The "well just don't move your head" argument is dumb as hell. What if you shift your posture? What if you want to show someone else something on your screen? What if you want to sit in a more comfortable chair and watch a movie? What if you have multiple people sitting in different areas watching a movie? Bad viewing angles suck and there is no reason to tolerate them in 2017. Entry level IPS panels no longer cost $500.

    Here are a number of IPS (almost certainly all e-IPS) 24" monitors under $200: https://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=ips+24"&N=8000 4017&isNodeId=1

    It's worth noting that a 24" 1920x1080 panel doesn't make much sense, usually you can get a 22.5" or 23" 1080p panel for a bit less, all 24" gives you at this resolution is bigger pixels. I would go for 1920x1200 min in a 24" panel but that tends to put you into the mid-range which is targeted more towards professionals (usually $350+).
    Alright, so I got a look at that list you gave me, and I've got two choices: 
    • 21.5'' ASUS VZ229H - 162.99 euros
    • LG 24MP59G-P IPS 23.8" FHD 16:9 75Hz FreeSync  - 169,90 euros.
    I think we can all agree that the LG monitor is the way to go. Right?
  • EarthQuake
    perna said:
    What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.
    A TN panel has limited gamut and narrow viewing angle.

    Narrow viewing angle: Now come on, you don't have to keep your head rigidly locked in place. I'm within the cone as long as I'm aligned with my mouse and keyboard. Reasonable. When I lounge far back in the chair or I'm in the kitchen cutting my toenails, the screen looks wonky, but so? That's a sad story about a whole family gathering around a measly budget TN to watch the latest torrent of Strictly Come Dancing, but that's not exactly a relevant usage case.

    Limited gamut: Doesn't matter. It doesn't look as pretty, but it doesn't make your colors any less accurate. There's no such thing as "absolute color", the way many in the IPS echo chamber believe. That's just ignorant of how the eye, brain or even light waves work. Practical example: Artist works on limited gamut, but sees all the reference art and the game build on the same monitor, so the work is 100% consistent and on-spec. Exactly how is the gamut an issue then? It isn't. It can't be. You'd have to make some serious leaps of logic to believe monitor color accuracy is a big issue. We know people buy terrible monitors, yet we don't see the horribly color-inaccurate art which is supposed to come as a result of that, so we can safely dismiss that whole myth.

    My main monitor costs as much as a new PC. Not because it lets me create better art, but because it provides a better experience. It's a luxury. If I had a shitty TN, I'd work around it. I'd be miserable, but my output would be the same. Colors would be be just as accurate.

    Let's not create this elitist thing where people become paranoid that their colors are somehow mysteriously going to be messed up unless they put down more dough than they can afford. Beginners have enough to worry about as it is.
    That's the thing though, you don't need to pay significantly more to get a monitor that doesn't have trash viewing angles and colors. e-IPS panels are very good and very affordable. There's a wide range between a $100 TN panel and a $900 Eizo. As consumers we have a lot of great choices these days, which wasn't the case 5 or 10 years ago.

    Color accuracy/reproduction/calibration is a complex topic that I don't have the energy to go into for this thread. I'm not saying that everyone has to have high end color accuracy to make art (unless you're doing color critical print work it's generally not necessary), but having a screen with good colors that don't shift as you make adjustments to your posture is within reach of basically everyone, not some extravagant luxury.

    Also this "elitism" nonsense: IPS monitors tend to have better color/viewing angles than TN, which means they tend to be objectively better for color sensitive work like art creation. This doesn't mean you can't make art on a TN panel, it simply means it's generally not the best choice. There may be exceptions to this, but that doesn't nullify the general concept. Similarly, a tablet tends to be objectively better than a mouse for painting or sculpting. Sure, you can paint and sculpt with a mouse, but most artists will recommend that you get a tablet. Does that make them tablet elitists too? Should I feel bad telling people they should have a decent video card for 3D modeling? Or a processor made in the last decade? With this line of reasoning, having basically any opinion on the matter other than "do whatever man life is meaningless" makes me an elitist, which is absurd.
  • EarthQuake
    perna said:
    IPS or equivalent is highly recommended. TN panels might be better than they used to be but they still suck. I would say color accuracy is fairly important to anyone doing artwork, and moving your head a bit and getting color shift sucks.
    Here we go :blush:
    A lot of people keep their chair in roughly the same spot and then viewing angle is not a problem. You shouldn't buy a product based on specs but based on the real-world user experience.

    I got rid of my 3rd monitor recently as it wasn't strictly necessary. The choice was between a TN or IPS of exactly the same DELL monitor. I got rid of the IPS, because it had worse blacks than the TN and a yellow tint. Both are common issues with IPS panels. The TN viewing angle is not great but it's sufficient.

    Don't trust anyone who simplifies it down to the letters in the panel name. All panels have pros and cons. Just research the individual monitors which fit your needs and budget. If the panel looks good, it looks good, regardless of specs. If reds look green or it has bad contrast you will see that with your eyes, you don't need nerdy jargon to make your mind up at that point. By the way, there's more than just TN and IPS.
    Yeah I mean the best case is to actually see a monitor in person before you buy it. That said, TN panels generally suck if you care about color accuracy and consistency (some people don't seem to notice or care about TN color shift), this is not based on "specs" but extensive personal experience. There is a range with TN panels but it generally runs from absolutely terrible to sort of okay. If sort of okay is good enough for you, that's great! But a monitor is something I typically tend to use for around 8 or so years, and look at 8+ hours a day, so it's worth getting something that is good quality even if you have to spend a bit more.

    Also yes, IPS is not the only alternative to TN, and there are a variety of types of IPS (S-IPS, H-IPS, etc) panels, but it does tend to be the most common panel type used by artists who care about color accuracy, and for good reason. These days you generally have to go out of your way to find a VA panel.

    In the budget range you're typically looking at e-IPS with a 6-bit FRC, which is a cheaper to produce panel but still generally better than TN, unless you have very specific requirements like very high refresh rates or very low latency, both of which tend to be strong points of TN panels. e-IPS panels tend to have very good viewing angles and good, but not exceptional color reproduction. I have a cheap-ish 23" Dell e-IPS as my secondary, which is noticeably better than any TN panel I've ever seen or used.

    The "well just don't move your head" argument is dumb as hell. What if you shift your posture? What if you want to show someone else something on your screen? What if you want to sit in a more comfortable chair and watch a movie? What if you have multiple people sitting in different areas watching a movie? Bad viewing angles suck and there is no reason to tolerate them in 2017. Entry level IPS panels no longer cost $500.

    Here are a number of IPS (almost certainly all e-IPS) 24" monitors under $200: https://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=ips+24"&N=8000 4017&isNodeId=1

    It's worth noting that a 24" 1920x1080 panel doesn't make much sense, usually you can get a 22.5" or 23" 1080p panel for a bit less, all 24" gives you at this resolution is bigger pixels. I would go for 1920x1200 min in a 24" panel but that tends to put you into the mid-range which is targeted more towards professionals (usually $350+).
    Alright, so I got a look at that list you gave me, and I've got two choices: 
    • 21.5'' ASUS VZ229H - 162.99 euros
    • LG 24MP59G-P IPS 23.8" FHD 16:9 75Hz FreeSync  - 169,90 euros.
    I think we can all agree that the LG monitor is the way to go. Right?
    Yeah out of these choices I would go for the LG, mostly because 21.5" is a bit small. Both look like they have good panels though.

    It looks like the LG has a variety of "gamer" oriented features and such, which can screw with colors, so you may want to turn some of that stuff off in the options if you go with that one.
  • gnoop
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    gnoop polycounter
    Nowdays   color reproduction of monitors  is not that much sparse  and fancy as it was decade ago.  Any default mode is more or less ok .  It's not that weird feeling when you came to TV store and saw a kind of   super  nuke vivid grass  at a football match   with  salesperson  explains you how "crystal clear" the colors are  there.   

    I did saw a few good TNs  still  they  imposes a kind of a risk.  The acceptable cone is still not wide enough.  You  would always risk to slip into wrong perception of your own work , just sitting a bit differently after a lunch than before.     The  colors HUE might be same  but gamma  now a bit shifted.  Shadows are not dark enough and you subconsciously tries  to make them darker  etc.     Whenever you think  you are sure  you know what you are doing  it does impact your  work output.    Saw it many times.    It just might be not that much important for some art styles  but does important for  life like  realistic visuals.      

    All that  is rather irrelevant if you work in a big company with a lot of monitors.   But for a small group or especially an independent contractor  a safe bet is still a decent calibration device  like x-rite i1 +  any  cheap  IPS ,  even 6bit+ FRC  .    Just don't  rely on notebooks IPS  which are in its own class  not covering even sRGB gamut.  You would oversaturate everything.
  • EarthQuake
    perna said:
    @Rockatansky

    Dude check this out: https://www.amazon.co.uk/LG-25UM58-P-25-Inch-21-UltraWide/dp/B01BV1XB2K/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1503771950&sr=8-4&keywords=qhd+monitor

    That's EUR 167 for a 25" 2560x1080 IPS, tiny bezel from an awesome manufacturer. This price is just ridiculous for what you get!




    Yap that one looks great. It's ridiculous the kind of monitor you can get for that sort of price these days.
  • Rockatansky
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    Rockatansky vertex
    perna said:
    @Rockatansky

    Dude check this out: https://www.amazon.co.uk/LG-25UM58-P-25-Inch-21-UltraWide/dp/B01BV1XB2K/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1503771950&sr=8-4&keywords=qhd+monitor

    That's EUR 167 for a 25" 2560x1080 IPS, tiny bezel from an awesome manufacturer. This price is just ridiculous for what you get!




    Yap that one looks great. It's ridiculous the kind of monitor you can get for that sort of price these days.
    I can't get that one because I don't have the means to pay for it. I still appreciate your suggestion though.
  • Rockatansky
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    Rockatansky vertex
    perna said:
    @Rockatansky

    Dude check this out: https://www.amazon.co.uk/LG-25UM58-P-25-Inch-21-UltraWide/dp/B01BV1XB2K/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1503771950&sr=8-4&keywords=qhd+monitor

    That's EUR 167 for a 25" 2560x1080 IPS, tiny bezel from an awesome manufacturer. This price is just ridiculous for what you get!




    Yap that one looks great. It's ridiculous the kind of monitor you can get for that sort of price these days.
    Like I said, those were the only two options. Take my word for it, I don't have the means to pay for it.
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