Traditional Pencil/Paper Art - Beginner Requesting Help
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Hello! This is my first post here. I was recommended this site when I was asking around and I've
browsed around before but didn't join back then. As a preliminary I typed "Beginner"
in the search box and went through 100 pages of results from around 2014. It seems like
most of the relevant threads ended up between General Discussion, technical talks, or career/education so I don't see a
specific area for these topics.
I already have years of experience going through beginner materials from sites to videos to books and would like to avoid Betty Edwards, Loomis, ctrlpaint, workshop videos, most older youtube stuff, deviantart, etc. If you want me to explain a specific grievance feel free to ask, but these resources are not for me on my own.
So I'd like to ask about if you knew of any different/alternative resources for learning traditional art (pencil, paper) from the beginning? Particularly with a focus on pedagogue and not as much on the standard list of concepts. I'd rather learn from a great teacher than a great artist basically (the aforementioned are better artists than teachers in my opinion) and the dictionary style of covering everything briefly means they don't put enough time in any single topic to help everyone (me) understand it enough.
I'm mainly looking for free resources/methods since all of the premium stuff I've tried have burned as big of a hole in my trust as they did my wallet. Thanks.
I already have years of experience going through beginner materials from sites to videos to books and would like to avoid Betty Edwards, Loomis, ctrlpaint, workshop videos, most older youtube stuff, deviantart, etc. If you want me to explain a specific grievance feel free to ask, but these resources are not for me on my own.
So I'd like to ask about if you knew of any different/alternative resources for learning traditional art (pencil, paper) from the beginning? Particularly with a focus on pedagogue and not as much on the standard list of concepts. I'd rather learn from a great teacher than a great artist basically (the aforementioned are better artists than teachers in my opinion) and the dictionary style of covering everything briefly means they don't put enough time in any single topic to help everyone (me) understand it enough.
I'm mainly looking for free resources/methods since all of the premium stuff I've tried have burned as big of a hole in my trust as they did my wallet. Thanks.
This discussion has been closed.
Replies
Losing money sucks but you can salvage at least some of it back by comparing any drawings/artwork you made to what the tutorials are telling you. That way, you can begin to pick up any techniques or correct errors you have made.
Three years is a lot of time. That's when you should start looking for industry level art instead of more beginner tutorials. This is hindsight of course but just my advice on how to manage time going forward.
So I'd like things that try to teach people at the level they're expected to be at. More self discovery, less expectations/presumptions. That's how I learn best.
I can explain specific issues in detail but the response tends to be along the lines of "these are well regarded resources, therefore either you're lying or you're stupid." When it comes to art I have no qualms admitting my complete idiocy. I'll overcome it one day, somehow, some way. Hopefully thanks to help from here perhaps.
So yeah. I'm used to comments like yours from people who don't know the solution but want to give a motivational +1. For those fitness problems I found the perfect teacher, and there's more than 1 even so that's nice. I'm fine waiting for the one for art. If I knew how to do art I would be one of them (it's one of my goals), very likely the best one.
The best way to get good results from an online community like Polycount is to show your current artwork. Keep working on your art, keep posting your work, and keep seeking critique on it. Rinse and repeat.
It takes hours of dedicated hard work to get better. Years.
To get more critique, give critique to others, involve yourself in the community, and keep posting your new artwork.
This process has proven to work for a lot of people. Maybe it won't for you, but it's worth a try. Getting defensive or negative about it won't help.
More about how it works here on Polycount:
http://polycount.com/discussion/184654/why-youre-not-getting-any-replies/p1
Finding a good art teacher is indeed hard (you might luck out and find a gem in a local class, it's random but that's the way things are, you'll have to try your luck) - but if you don't have access to any, well, the next best thing is simply to teach yourself. The (good) material is definitely out there.
My art is along the lines of throwing grass on the frying pan hoping to make lettuce. I'm not in the loop of "make stuff, get critiqued, learn, make new stuff, repeat". I'm before the loop trying to figure out how to get into it, going from stick figures to something worth critiquing. The whole idea of using lines and marks to create an image that represents an object that people will be able to recognize on their own without asking you what it is, that is still mystical for me.
Yes I have and I have my reasons for lumping him with them. If the audience is people with artistic ability then of course all of these materials are great, but preaching to the choir isn't a sign of quality pedagogy. I appreciate his efforts though since he actually had a good spirit/attitude towards it.
And I'd like to know about that good material you're thinking about if you feel like sharing your preferences.
Also already have been through the 2nd book. It's no different than free resources online. Definitely not buying the first book, or any books that people recommend without explaining why it's different than all of the ones I've been through.
Also when you reach the stage of "It's your mindset/attitude" it's just condescension, not criticism. It doesn't add anything to the discussion. The idea that "you didn't learn something because your attitude was not positive enough" is fallacious since it presumes things that can be disproved and doesn't regard how well a person is capable of absorbing the actual content. For example, if I put a rocket science formula in front of you and said "if you don't understand this it's only because you're being negative". Maybe it's because you don't have the fundamentals building up to the level of rocket science? If I presume it's because you're negative and assume that the book I learned it from is sufficient for you and that you're just being a bad student, I'm not helping you.
You should avoid falling into that pit since it ends up just creating negativity where there doesn't need to be any. I'm actually a very positive person and am open to any (valid) suggestions that will help me improve myself in art, life, and beyond. I put a lot of effort into the things I do and want to succeed it. I just require more than the average person to reach the same level for certain topics.
I have no problems with paying by the way. My problem is that I've lost trust in premium art teachers/mentors/books like with the "absolute beginner" book you linked me. It's definitely not for absolute beginners and I consider that type of thing a scam. But when I see that someone's knowledge and empathy are top notch I have and will support them. I have not found this in the art world yet and I have no intentions of gambling on promises.
As for my experience/level, not very far from lines and shapes for traditional art. I have more experience with digital tools and effects like Photoshop/GIMP. You mentioned drawing and shading cubes earlier. 3d shapes and shading are 2 of my trouble spots. Watching people do it has proven ineffective. Explaining the details of what it's supposed to be and explaining to someone how to translate that to their canvas are 2 different things, at least for me.
I understand the frustrations you have gone through since it is undeniable that there is a lot of sub-par material out there, simply because many artists think they can teach but are actually awful at explaining things. So no disagreement here.
That said there is fantastic material is available - you probably simply skipped over it or didn't identify it, which is understandable since not all recommendations are valid. The Loomis page I linked to is definitely a valid resource. It covers the importance of visual balance and contrast in a composition, and I would argue that it is pretty much 100% of what drawing and painting is about - it applies to overall page composition, to the relative visual contrast of smaller elements, and all the way down to line quality. The hypothetical teacher you are looking for will definitely stress that too - the only downside of not having access to such a teacher is that it will take a while for you to grasp these concepts on your own. I personally don't believe in brute force practice but if you are on your own (without a teacher and without quality educational material to fall back to) then you'll have no choice but trying and failing for a while.
But also consider this : even with an excellent teacher it can take a while to actually grasp these things. I witnessed this first hand during an evening class I was taking a few years ago. The teacher was laying down concepts and exercises for the current session in a very clear and concise manner but some students simply didn't catch what was being explained. But the irony is that months later I then realized that even when I thought I understood/identified something, I actually only partially understood it or misunderstood it completely and things only started to click much later. What I am getting at is that there is definitely some brain rewiring going on here - sometimes the understanding is instantaneous and sometimes it isn't.
The best thing one can do is to acknowledge that things will probably suck for a while, even with very clear instructions.
Overall you might simply need a different approach to researching the topic. Your analogy to physical training and the mention of Deviantart and Ctrlpaint makes me believe that you skipped over what is in my opinion the most fascinating part of researching a subject : tracing back the lineage of an idea or concept and study its history. Read biographies (or even better, autobiographies) of master artists, look up and trace back their own influences, and so on. You will find treasures of knowledge that way.
(also : As this point the discussion is starting to be circular so now might be a good time for you to show the actual level you are currently at and explain in detail why specific resources weren't working for you. You might have relied on subpar material, but you might also have skipped over some key points. No one can help you if you don't show what you are starting from and specify what you want to achieve.)
I would like to test some very clear instructions to confirm this theory.
I can understand the concept of perspective and weight when I read it from places like that Loomis page, but learning how to apply it is problematic. They give you the end point but not a path to reach it. This is why I differentiate between resources that teach the science of art vs ones that instruct you how to apply the principles. A lot is assumed about what you the reader should be able to do on your own by the time you've reached that chapter, so all I really want is something that gets me to that point of basic expectations.
As a specific example of a direct problem of mine, I remember one time I was at Disneyland and they were having everyone draw Pluto with an artist on the stage giving instructions. You can guess how that went.
Loomis is good, http://drawabox.com/ is good. There aren't many things that are better, free or paid, and you're not ready for them yet anyway. Make use of both. For Loomis start with "Fun with a Pencil" and for Drawabox start with lesson 1. Expect the process to take a lot of time. Every day, you should draw at least one drawing, then look at it and find something specific that isn't quite working right. The next day, draw the same thing, maybe from a different pose or camera angle, but try something new to address the issue you saw yesterday. Post it for critiques, look at references, and incorporate what you learned into the next drawing.
Aim to get to a point where you've built up some speed. If you can convey 50% of the ideas of a finished drawing in 5% of the time that means you can try something new something like 20 times in an hour instead of just once in an hour. This will be extremely helpful as you're figuring things out. There's no subsitute for a high volume of iterations on a few subjects, and what you learn from one subject can be applied to others. As Bruce Lee said, "I fear not the man who has practiced 10000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10000 times."
And you're the admin of this place? I'll take the advice I've gotten here and apply it to a community with friendlier management. Feel free to close this and whatever if that's really your urgency, but I'm not going to cater to your ultimatums/demands based on your patience level.