What would an European exit mean for the UK games industry?

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greentooth
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littleclaude greentooth
From developers to retailers, this is what leaving the European Union would mean for one of the UK's most important creative industries - http://www.wired.co.uk/article/uk-eu-referendum-games-industry

People of the UK and expats, you have got to get out and vote this week!



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  • Hito
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    Hito interpolator
    Been paying attention to Brexit referendum. Leave campaign seems to be edging ahead little by little, though still within margin of error polls.
  • mats effect
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    mats effect Polycount Sponsor
    No idea what way to go yet however pretty worried people are going to vote based on what is quite frankly lies and BS from both sides.
  • almighty_gir
  • lefix
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    lefix polycounter lvl 9
    Would UK studios still be able to hire talent from Europe without work permit obstacles?
  • RobeOmega
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    RobeOmega polycounter lvl 5
    lefix said:
    Would UK studios still be able to hire talent from Europe without work permit obstacles?
    I severely doubt it. Part of the argument on the Brexit side is that they cannot control immigration while in the EU. So expect issues migrating to the UK to work in the event of a Brexit if hiring from Europe.
  • thomasp
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    thomasp interpolator
    in the event of a vote to leave there's going to be a few years of uncertainity. an income threshold would be a likely candidate to thin out the herd quickly before an immigration rule set can be worked out.

    it would be interesting to see what a split from the EU would mean for the right to stay of those who moved there for a job under pre-referendum conditions yet are not after citizenship.
  • littleclaude
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    littleclaude greentooth
    One of the UK’s leading EU law experts criticizes the referendum debate’s “dishonesty on an industrial scale”, as he considers the claims and counter claims from each side and explains what will happen if we go or stay on a range of subjects.

    https://www.facebook.com/UniversityofLiverpool/videos/1293361974024537/
  • RyanB
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    RyanB Polycount Sponsor
    You already have a real-life example: Norway.  They rejected EU membership and are doing just fine. 



  • RobeOmega
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    RobeOmega polycounter lvl 5
    @RyanB

    I would say the UK is a different case because they are moving from a EU Member to a Non-EU member and as such they will have to make all new trade deals.
  • littleclaude
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    littleclaude greentooth
    RyanB said:
    You already have a real-life example: Norway.  They rejected EU membership and are doing just fine.  
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Yeah, I have watched the "BREXIT THE MOVIE FULL FILM" it has some interesting content but is obviously very pro exit.


    The clip about the Swiss model is also intesting. 


    I do sometimes wonder if the Elite dump all this stuff on our laps to make us feel like there is some control of our fate and society as a whole.

  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm greentooth
    Both Switzerland and Norway aren't as "out" as Britain would be immediately after an exit. Norway, for example, is part of the "EU-light", the EEA. Switzerland has more than 120 economic deals linking itself to the EU's fate - not that it has much choice, it is surrounded by the EU which is it's biggest trade partner.
    Britain would have to ask for joining the EEA, or make deals like Switzerland, which will take a while. Until then Britain is like every other country outside Europe that has no special deals with the EU: While Britain is still in the WTO, it's more or less on the same standing like e.g. Burundi or really anyone else out there who's in the WTO.

    The idea that leaving the EU will solve all your problems is just ridiculous, yet there are other regions in Europe who think that building a wall around their country will somehow fix everything. Whoever thinks that, and refers to Norway and Switzerland, should take a close look at the deals and treaties those countries are in. Nevermind that Norway also has much fewer people than the UK and much more oil to spread around.

    In the games industry we should probably know best how much we can gain through collaboration and bringing international talent on board - and not because we save a buck but because having actual talent on board makes a difference.

  • AtticusMars
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    AtticusMars greentooth
    Isolationism is so hot right now
  • RyanB
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    RyanB Polycount Sponsor
    Robeomega said:
    @RyanB

    I would say the UK is a different case because they are moving from a EU Member to a Non-EU member and as such they will have to make all new trade deals.
    Yes, it is different in some ways and every country will have differences in demographics, resources, scale, etc.  But Norway is doing well and has a growing games industry.

    I'm going to skip on writing a breakdown of money sent to Brussels, money that comes back from Brussels, total video game investment and total video game tax relief credits for the UK because it's not a political forum.  Also, I don't really care because I don't live in the UK :)

  • Savannakhet
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    Savannakhet polycounter lvl 5
    RyanB said:

    But Norway is doing well and has a growing games industry.

    Norway has a Trillion dollar sovereign wealth fund generated from selling Oil. 

    The UK has not. 
  • Stinger88
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    Stinger88 greentooth
    I'm very strongly in favour of Remain and will be voting to stay in the EU.

    I work for a French company (Ubisoft) and my wife is Portuguese. However, even if I didn't have such a strong connection to the EU i'd still be voting to remain. I've followed the debate very closely and in the beginning I wanted to find out if the Leave campaign had anything to offer that could sway my vote, just in case a leave vote might be better for the country as a whole. The leave campaign have completely failed to sway my vote, they can't provide facts and the people that are at the front running for the campaign are... well lets just say, they aren't very nice people and they have some very "dodgy" ideas. Their arguments are based on immigration and economy, As if leaving the EU will magically fix these issues. It won't.

    That's not to say the remain campaign is perfect mind. They have plenty of flaws and they cant make guarantees either, but I do believe that we should remain within the EU and work to fix things as part of the single market and not leave and have zero say in it what so ever.

    A group I follow closely on Facebook are the "Scientists for EU". Here is their review of the Brexit Movie. I highly recommend watching his other vids and following on FB. https://www.facebook.com/scientistsforeu/



    Anyway, at this point I just want to get it over with and hope to god we remain in the EU. I do fear that my job will be at risk and I know for a fact that my annual income will be lowered by extra expenses due to my wife's nationality, etc.

    Btw, my wife has lived and worked here for 10+ years. Paying taxes pretty much every day she has been here. She doesn't get to vote while people who have been on benefits since they left school or people in prison do get to vote. Boils my piss!


    Also, a video to lighten the mood, while debunking the Leave campaign "facts".


  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm greentooth
    Stinger88 said:
    I'm very strongly in favour of Remain and will be voting to stay in the EU.

    Same here. I hope Britain stays, but I also hope that some people in Brussels wake up. Right now, in Europe, we have many politicians, but what we really lack are statesmen. It's been a long time since we had anyone with a vision for Europe that didn't stop at their own national borders and interests. E pluribus unum... but that motto is already taken. It would serve Europe well though
  • Arkaria
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    Arkaria polycounter lvl 2
    Don't use the US as a model our country is a shit show too lol
  • marrakech
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    marrakech polycounter lvl 5
       >:)
    not correlated statements but interesting
    the old world has only fear to bring to the table .
  • thomasp
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    thomasp interpolator
    how is that fear though? you have 27 countries to agree to any new deal among themselves. i think that's just reality that the process would take time.
  • 0xffff
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    0xffff vertex
    I'm just going to leave this here, as a point of reference.



  • Stinger88
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    Stinger88 greentooth
    This video is probably the most factual I've seen in the whole debate and definitely worth a watch, especially if you are on the fence and not sure which way to vote. I wish more factual info like this got more exposure, rather than the crap the media is feeding us.

    "Professor of European Law at the University of Liverpool, Professor Dougan provides his viewpoint on the EU referendum, and discussed the facts and figures circulated by both the ‘Leave’ and ‘Remain’ campaigns."


  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy greentooth

    Please note that stated below are my opinions from research I have personally done over the past few months along with my general knowledge of the EU and should be taken as such. These are my personal opinions and not those any company I represent.

    While I usually try to not be political on Polycount, as this directly affects the UK games industry I feel I can make an exception in this case & although this post doesn’t cover only gamedev related issues, the broader economy does have a direct impact on our sector so I feel that it is still relevant. I have tried my best not to be inflammatory and present the facts as best I can and I realise that this is a pretty wordy post so I apologize in advance...I wanted to try and cover as much as reasonably possible. 

    I will be voting remain on Thursday for a few reasons. Firstly, I feel strongly European and think that in a global world the last thing we need is increased division and separation. Secondly, I am a huge advocate of freedom of movement in the EU for both personal and professional reasons. The games industry is, on a worldwide scale, very small when compared to other sectors that generate similar revenues & depending on which figures you count the UK has is the 3rd or 4th largest game development sector in the world. We need the ability to move freely within the industry because there isn’t enough skilled manpower to go around & having a points style immigration policy will hinder the acquisition of global talent. If we base the requirements on those of the United States, then if you don’t have a degree you can pretty much forget moving to pastures new unless you have 6-8 years of experience in a studio. Freelance work doesn’t really count as it’s incredibly hard to prove.

     

    The vast majority of financial experts are saying that there would be a large GDP penalty to the UK economy if we do indeed vote to leave on the 23rd (to the tune of around £20-40 billion per year by 2020). Let’s assume for the sake of argument that this figure is reasonable. This loss to our GDP would have to be made up by either higher taxes, increased borrowing or cuts to services.  Higher taxes & cuts to services hurt everyone; especially those on lower incomes and services are already stretched very thinly. Higher borrowing is a possibility but would likely affect our credit rating as a country, which would eventually increase interest rates and would ultimately still have to be paid off by either increasing taxation or cutting services. I should note that this £20-40 billion is the estimated figure that our economy would be stronger by had we voted to remain within the EU.

    It’s also likely that voting to leave would put the UK into technical recession, as investment dries up and sterling weakens while international companies decide what they are going to do regarding the imminent situation (investment wont flow normally until investors know where the goalposts are). Considering that the UK lost over 10% of its game development workforce during the 2008 recession, it would be very hard for us to take another hammer blow as we have only recently recovered back to our pre-recession peak (late 2013).

     

    Once we are at the EU table negotiating our exit (more on this further on) it’s extremely unlikely that we will get anything close to the current deals in trade without accepting freedom of movement or having to pay a fee to the EU, which are two of the three main pillars of the leave campaign.

    • After the rebate and EU spending within the country the UK pays a net contribution to the EU of around £8.5 billion per year, which is about £132 per capita (around 0.5% GDP).
    • Norway’s EEA membership and other EU payments amounts to around £620 million per year (depending on the exchange rate), which is about £124 per capita.

    So broadly speaking we can assume that if the UK were able to negotiate a similar deal to Norway we would still have to pay around the same amount as we do now albeit 6% less, which is around £500m per year.

    With those figures in mind we should be reminded that Norway is also part of the Schengen area, which guarantees freedom of movement from within the EU (even though they are not member states,) and Norway has to implement EU laws related to trade in order to be able to export goods to within the area while simultaneously not receiving any EU funding or negotiating the laws in which they must follow. They are essentially paying a fee solely for access to the single market. Perhaps that extra £500m a year doesn’t look so bad after all as it pays for a seat at the table?…

    Of course, this is assuming that we will pay something close to Norway at all as the UK economy is almost 6 times larger than that of Norway’s and as such there is no precedent for such a negotiation.

     

    The third pillar of the leave campaign is the wish to regain an apparent loss of sovereignty from “unelected bureaucrats” which is disingenuous at best. Yes, we have surrendered a certain amount of sovereignty to the EU, but we have also gained a share in the sovereignty of 27 other nations and Parliament is still ultimately sovereign as the government can choose to leave the EU at any time by invoking Article 50 (without a referendum). Furthermore, the majority of laws in the UK are also made, on behalf of the government, by the civil service who are also “unelected bureaucrats” and are almost an order of magnitude larger than the entire staff of the EU. Seems a little two faced to complain about a “foreign” system that we are quite happy to have at home with no one batting an eyelid.

    New EU laws must also be given consent by elected MEPs before they are made law and since 1999 the UK has voted ‘Yes’ for 95% of those laws (3% abstention and 2% voted ‘No’). If there is an EU law that we don’t like, then we should blame our MEPs and vote them out rather than complaining these laws are forced upon us by a tyrannical EU. We (the UK) voted for these laws after all.

    As soon as Article 50 is invoked we then have 2 years to negotiate an exit while still trading under the current terms, unless unanimously agreed otherwise by other member states. If no deal is reached or extension given, then we would have to fallback to WTO tariffs, which would each have to be negotiated line by line for each product or service we export. It is not a case of simply copying and pasting current trade agreements. We would also be forced to renegotiate pretty much all our trade agreements for partners outside the EU as the majority of our current treaties are at the EU level (we would be starting from scratch essentially). The WTO has estimated that these tariffs would come to around £9 billion for imports and £5.5 billion for exports per year. Add this to the cost of renegotiating & implementing new trade regulations as the entire of UK service sector and industry as a whole would need to learn new rules which all costs money.

    On a personal note it blows my mind that some people seem to think that the EU is some magical entity that suddenly appeared or that it has turned into something that we didn’t vote for. It evolved from the EC, which we joined on our 3rd attempt in 1973 after initially applying for membership in 1961 & 1967 (both times being vetoed by Charles de Gaulle) and our elected officials made the decision to sign the Maastricht Treaty in 1992 which turned the EC into the EU. Nothing has happened in this regard that the UK didn’t agree with. The EU isn’t something that was forced upon us.

     

    Why should the UK remain within the EU?

    Simply put we are more prosperous within. Since joining the EC/EU in 1973 the UK has seen unprecedented growth in its per capita GDP of (103%), beating Germany (99%), the USA (97%) and France (74%) during the same time period. The same also holds true for median household income which has risen by 79% compared to 16% the USA, which means that the working class & UK middle class has gotten richer while in the EU, not just the 1%.

    Around 45% of our export trade goes directly to the EU, to a tune of £230 billion per year, and has grown by an average of 3.6% each year since 1999.

    We also have the EU to thank for our excellent employment rights that guarantee us minimum paid annual leave (28 days for fulltime), maximum working hours (48pw unless agreed by the employee) and the ability to reclaim vacation time if you become sick while on holiday. Yes, it could be that we might have had these rights had we not been in the EU, but now they are cemented within a treaty that would have to be renegotiated and ratified by 27 other nations if the UK feels the impulse to remove them.

    The UK is the primary global financial centre in the world and the UK has been the worlds biggest net exporter of financial services for the last decade (300% larger than that of the USA who are 2nd) and trade 41% of global exchange trades (more dollars are traded within the UK than the USA).  We provide 17% of all international bank lending worldwide, more than any other centre, and have a large trade surplus of £62 billion per year.

    Why is this important?  The UK is home to over 250 foreign banks and over 1400 financial services firms that are majority foreign-owned and all of whom currently have access to the single market. Currently The City of London currently pays around £63 billion in Tax each year (11.6% of total UK tax receipts) and employs 4% of our total work force. Having access to the single market allows the UK services industry to grow each year, pay lots of tax and invest within the UK.

    And last but not least we are able to freely travel and work without let or hindrance to other countries within the EU on a whim. This enables all citizens of the EU to work in the UK and for us to take jobs in other countries that perhaps we would have not had the opportunity to otherwise. Unfortunately hiring someone who needs a work permit or a VISA is a gigantic pain in the ass for employers as well as an expensive legal process. I’m sure many of you have friends who have moved from Europe to the USA to work at large studios and what a laborious and long winded process that can be. It’s not unusual for such things to take months of application, reapplication with no guarantee of a working VISA at the end of the process. As European citizens we can choose to relocate to another state within the EU in a matter of days at minimal cost to ourselves and potential employers.

     

    To summarize, no the EU isn’t perfect, but not governmental body is. We can either vote to leave and sufferer the potential consequences or vote to remain and work with our European neighbours to shape an EU that people are happier with. Personally I don’t think leaving is worth the potential risks for such a small amount of money (relative to our GDP) and I’m certainly not going to vote leave because we might get our old incandescent light bulbs back or more powerful vacuum cleaners with go-faster stripes (but then again I’m not voting remain so I can cut my roaming charges while in the EU either). There is a much larger picture here and unlike our usual general elections where if we make a mistake we can come back in 4 years and vote the current government out. The choice on Thursday will shape the future of our country and how we look at, and are viewed by the rest of the world.

  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 13
    0xffff I take offense at Trump being listed under world leaders, please add a section for "reality tv stars"
  • Ged
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    Ged polycounter lvl 10

    The third pillar of the leave campaign is the wish to regain an apparent loss of sovereignty from “unelected bureaucrats” which is disingenuous at best. Yes, we have surrendered a certain amount of sovereignty to the EU, but we have also gained a share in the sovereignty of 27 other nations and Parliament is still ultimately sovereign as the government can choose to leave the EU at any time by invoking Article 50 (without a referendum). Furthermore, the majority of laws in the UK are also made, on behalf of the government, by the civil service who are also “unelected bureaucrats” and are almost an order of magnitude larger than the entire staff of the EU. Seems a little two faced to complain about a “foreign” system that we are quite happy to have at home with no one batting an eyelid.


    -This is an interesting point! I thought there must be some way for the uk government to overrule or walk away from eu law if a truly horrendous law was put in place.  Thanks for taking time to write all that. Ive read tons of infor but its still difficult to see through all the noise out there. I never thought we would be more prosperous out, not in the next 5 to 10 years anyway and who knows after that.

  • 0xffff
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    0xffff vertex
    Just you wait Justin, just you wait  :(
  • teaandcigarettes
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    teaandcigarettes polycounter lvl 8
    Something worth mentioning in regard to the Norwegian/Swiss model. While those countries are in the EEA and have an access to the single market they still need to follow majority of EU regulations, pay towards the EU budget and most of all participate in the free movement of workers. They do not have a say in the creation of law in the EU, but they do have to abide by it. 
    So joining the EEA after leaving the EU would be an even worse deal, not to mention it would probably mean losing any previously negotiated rebates and opt outs that the UK currently enjoys.


    As for the games industry in the UK Brexit has me terribly worried. I have studied, worked and lived in the UK for 7 years before eventually leaving two years ago. In my experience UK game studios rely heavily on EU workers and as it is now, game development education in the UK (or anywhere really) is simply not good enough to fill the needs of the largest game development hub in Europe.
    If Brexit were to happen I can see a lot of the studios moving over to Ireland, continental Europe or just getting out of the EU entirely in favor of US and Canada.
  • Biomag
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    Biomag polycounter lvl 3
    @metalliandy
    Great summary and great gathering of information. A big part of the problems with the EU is (and this is nothing specific of the UK as it happens everywhere) that the goverments and politicians present the it as the enemy or at least nothing that the nations can control or influence. Far too often the blame is attributed to the Union, while simply not mentioning that the memberstates represented by elected parties are making the calls. The only gremium that people don't vote for is the Commission. The parlament is directly voted by the EU-citizens, and the Council of Ministers is made of ministers of each country - so bascially exactly the same people that won their elections at home. Funnily enough as a Croatian in Vienna after 26 years of living here (and paying taxes) I have more influence on who is sitting in the EU parlament to represent Austria than who is going to sit in the Austrian parlament.

    The EU needs a lot more PR-work to get the less seen and often taken for granted benefits presented to the public. They make it far too easy for those oposing the union.


    A last thing as I heard it a couple of days ago the comparission of the EU to Nazi Germany, Nepoleon and so on based on the idea of 'big states' that failed. How can you compare the union that is based on a free decision to join to nations that were build on war and conquering? The absurdity of this claim gets only surpassed by the irony that the EU was created to prevent wars among France and Germany and succeeded in doing so to an unbelievable degree. We take it for granted that there is a cooperation among European states, but if you look back into history you will never see such a long phase of peace in central Europe. That achievement alone is far bigger than most people realize.
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy greentooth
    @Ged
    You're most welcome!
    Yea, we always have options if everything goes really pear shaped. :)

    @Biomag
    Thanks for the kind words :)
    Yea, that's a great point actually. Much of the problem is one of perception and that people see large amounts of money getting sent abroad without realising what it gets spent on. They really need to hire a new PR dept.
    It amazes me that people consider the EU a failed project too. Europe has been in a perpetual state of war since the 11th century with only the last 70 years being ones of relative peace, which is exactly what the EU was created for initially. I guess people need to have at least a passing knowledge of history for that to really sink in and the majority of people don't really look back past WW1.
  • AtticusMars
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    AtticusMars greentooth
    I don't think the EU was necessarily a bad idea but the monetary union certainly hasn't been going great... Not relevant in the UK's case though.
  • RyanB
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    RyanB Polycount Sponsor

    It amazes me that people consider the EU a failed project too. Europe has been in a perpetual state of war since the 11th century with only the last 70 years being ones of relative peace, which is exactly what the EU was created for initially. I guess people need to have at least a passing knowledge of history for that to really sink in and the majority of people don't really look back past WW1.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36383211

    Reality Check verdict: Many European politicians want to see the creation of an EU army, but EU treaties are clear that it could be blocked by Britain.

    ...

    However, there are many senior European politicians who would like to see deeper integration. Jean-Claude Juncker, the EU Commission president, has said that a European army is needed to stand up to Russia. And a recent German government white paper called for progress towards an EU army.
    Looks like a lot of Europeans want the biggest army in European history. 
  • Joopson
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    Joopson Polycount Sponsor
    Isolationism is so hot right now
    I've been thinking the same thing. People wanting to build a wall here and severely limit all sorts of immigration, people wanting to leave the EU and severely limit immigration and refugees there.... It's a time of an odd upheaval, and I wonder where it's all going to go. And I'm not so very hopeful about it.
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy greentooth
    RyanB said:

    It amazes me that people consider the EU a failed project too. Europe has been in a perpetual state of war since the 11th century with only the last 70 years being ones of relative peace, which is exactly what the EU was created for initially. I guess people need to have at least a passing knowledge of history for that to really sink in and the majority of people don't really look back past WW1.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36383211

    Reality Check verdict: Many European politicians want to see the creation of an EU army, but EU treaties are clear that it could be blocked by Britain.

    ...

    However, there are many senior European politicians who would like to see deeper integration. Jean-Claude Juncker, the EU Commission president, has said that a European army is needed to stand up to Russia. And a recent German government white paper called for progress towards an EU army.
    Looks like a lot of Europeans want the biggest army in European history. 
    I really not sure how that is relevant to the point I was making. European army or not the EU has seen relative peace for the last 70 years.
  • Biomag
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    Biomag polycounter lvl 3
    The European army idea is actually just part of an united forgein policy that finally has reached the heads of states as the financial crises made it clear that its pointless to have a monitary union, but not act as a union when it comes to commerce AND politically dealing with other global players. So the 'big failure' of the European idea is actually to be attributed to the EU opposition who are blocking cooperation (see how the members are handling the refugee issue by persuing individual solutions) and then complain that the union can't make decisions or only the weakest/smallest compromises.

    At the same time many if not the most members of the Union are also members of the NATO coalition and therefore they cooperate already in military operations worldwide even with nations that aren't part of the Union.
  • RyanB
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    RyanB Polycount Sponsor
    RyanB said:

    It amazes me that people consider the EU a failed project too. Europe has been in a perpetual state of war since the 11th century with only the last 70 years being ones of relative peace, which is exactly what the EU was created for initially. I guess people need to have at least a passing knowledge of history for that to really sink in and the majority of people don't really look back past WW1.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36383211

    Reality Check verdict: Many European politicians want to see the creation of an EU army, but EU treaties are clear that it could be blocked by Britain.

    ...

    However, there are many senior European politicians who would like to see deeper integration. Jean-Claude Juncker, the EU Commission president, has said that a European army is needed to stand up to Russia. And a recent German government white paper called for progress towards an EU army.
    Looks like a lot of Europeans want the biggest army in European history. 
    I really not sure how that is relevant to the point I was making. European army or not the EU has seen relative peace for the last 70 years.
    Come on, you don't see the relevance to the discussion?  Don't try and pull a valuemeal.

    I agree we are living in the most peaceful period of history and there are benefits to the EU, but it is easy to get complacent.  
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy greentooth
    RyanB said:
    Come on, you don't see the relevance to the discussion?  Don't try and pull a valuemeal.

    I agree we are living in the most peaceful period of history and there are benefits to the EU, but it is easy to get complacent.  
    I'm not trying to pull anything, but no I don't see the relevance. I specifically said that Europe has been in a perpetual state of war since the 11th century. As in European states fighting against other European states. Why would a united European army make it more likely that Europe would start infighting after 70 years of peace? If anything it would make it harder to do so wouldn't it?

  • RyanB
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    RyanB Polycount Sponsor
    RyanB said:
    Come on, you don't see the relevance to the discussion?  Don't try and pull a valuemeal.

    I agree we are living in the most peaceful period of history and there are benefits to the EU, but it is easy to get complacent.  
    I'm not trying to pull anything, but no I don't see the relevance. I specifically said that Europe has been in a perpetual state of war since the 11th century. As in European states fighting against other European states. Why would a united European army make it more likely that Europe would start infighting after 70 years of peace? If anything it would make it harder to do so wouldn't it?

    Sure, it would make it less likely for an exclusively EU war.  So, this potential European army will be against non-Europeans only.
  • slipsius
    If they leave, I would think it would mean more jobs for the UK developers. Less jobs for those out of country developers trying to get in.

  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy greentooth
    RyanB said:
    Sure, it would make it less likely for an exclusively EU war.  So, this potential European army will be against non-Europeans only.
    Sure, that's a possibility but that would be retaining the status quo pretty much as we only fight in wars with non-europeans anyway during recent times. I'm not sure an EU army will happen in the near future anyway, especially since the UK has stated it will veto any plans for an EU army.
    slipsius said:
    If they leave, I would think it would mean more jobs for the UK developers. Less jobs for those out of country developers trying to get in.

    I'm not sure it will work like that in practice unfortunately.
    We dont have enough home-grown staff to man the positions that we currently need filled and exiting the EU it will only make it harder to hire. Add to that the likely recession, reduction of investment within the UK and the likelihood that the current 20% percent tax break for developers will be questioned as to its affordability and we have the perfect storm pretty much.
  • Biomag
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    Biomag polycounter lvl 3
    slipsius said:
    If they leave, I would think it would mean more jobs for the UK developers. Less jobs for those out of country developers trying to get in.

    If it is harder to get quality staff than you also invest less in that location. Also with less access to the European market UK loses points in the race with other countries. Some expect this is the chance for Paris and Berlin to take London's position when it comes to IT-business as they might be more attractive for investments. You can be sure that those who would have moved to the UK from the rest of the EU for a job wouldn't mind if it is Paris or Berlin instead.
  • Jonas Ronnegard
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    Jonas Ronnegard Polycount Sponsor
    Really happy I got paid from my last UK job before the vote went trough, no more UK jobs for me hehe
  • Joopson
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    Joopson Polycount Sponsor
    I suppose we'll now find out the consequences of such a decision.
  • Biomag
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    Biomag polycounter lvl 3
    Yup... no more speculation needed, we are going to see what the results are. I just hope the shock on the financial market doesn't make us others pay for UK's decision.
  • Jonas Ronnegard
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    Jonas Ronnegard Polycount Sponsor
    not sure what people think will change, they will need to go into even worse agreements then they have now,

    the only things that might change are the small rules that EU applies, like what shape a cucumber has to have etc, those small things that no one will have time to touch, all other agreement will in time be up for discussion again only they lose all the benefits they got from earlier agreements plus this time around EU will be really hard on them to show other EU countries what happens if you leave.
  • Biomag
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    Biomag polycounter lvl 3
    I am also very interested what will happen to Scotland. Actually a lot of places could use this to harm Britain. How are they going to deny Scotland to repeat their referendum if this is basically the right the UK took to leave the EU? Again there are places in the EU that probably would like to take some of the financial and IT industries from London and have maybe even better cards than UK keeping it. Also with the Scots pushing for a leave the wealthiest part of the UK could be gone too. It could be a very dark future for the British economy.
  • Gilgamesh
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    Gilgamesh polycounter lvl 8
    Welp, were fucked - I need to find a job in Canada or something.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir polycounter
    I'm legitimately fucking terrified right now. Not just for me, but for the hundreds of EU workers and friends that i have living here at the moment. There are quite a few studios in london that have huge amounts of insanely talented EU nationals working in them. I fear for their survival.
  • marrakech
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    marrakech polycounter lvl 5
    lets wait one year and then >>>>>>>>>ur fucked
  • Magihat
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    Magihat interpolator
    plus this time around EU will be really hard on them to show other EU countries what happens if you leave.
    Yeah, unless they want to start a snowball effect of other countries considering leaving. UK pretty much threw down the gauntlet and EU have to respond with strength to give a show of confidence that they need EU more than EU need the UK.
  • Brian "Panda" Choi
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    Brian "Panda" Choi polycounter
    @almighty_gir
    Is it just me, or did this all happen rather briskly . . .
  • Magihat
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    Magihat interpolator
    It happen rather brexitly...

    I will se myself out.
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