Need help decision making
TL;DR I've been asked by a kickstarted company what would be an amount I would start work for. How do I decide? Backstory is rather important.
Sorry if this doesn't make perfect sense as I'm quite emotionally and physically drained right now. Basically I need some opinions on my situation.
Some backstory. A few months ago I was contacted by a guy who I worked with for a short while on a popular mod. He said that they were creating a standalone game down the same vein as the mod, and they were possibly interested in buying a model I had done previously. I talked with their lead guy, told them how much I would let the model go for and offered my services as a freelancer. He explained that they did not have any funds until they ran their kickstarter, but expressed interest in possibly hiring me to do some high poly models in the future.
A few months down the line their kickstarter ended at something around 230% funded. I started talking to the guy again. He asked if I had any examples of any environment work I've done. I showed him some stuff. I have yet to finish an entire environment. It's what I am currently actively learning. Most of my work is hard surface hero assets... guns, vehicles etc. But he was impressed with what he saw, saying "My gut tells me your one of the best candidates we have had in a while and I am pretty sold on your skill set." They need environment artists most, but I wouldn't be limited to that role only. However, I feel like I am not as confident with environment stuff, lacking experience. I can produce props and stuff no problem. I just have limited experience with things like foliage and making really nice tiled textures.
I was posed the question: how much would I need to earn, baseline, to begin work even part time. I was told that they would be releasing on steam early access some time down the line, so I figure they would like me to give them a lower figure until their funding is boosted to the next level. I am happy to work for a lower rate considering my lack of experience with environment work, given that they can help me reach the high standards I hold myself to.
My problem lies in the question of a starting place for payment. It feels like an almost arbitrary decision. I read on the wiki that something like £18/hr is the lower amount people tend to charge for freelance. This is what I initially, a few months ago, posed to them as my desired rate. I'm thinking that I would be happy to work for less than this while I get more confident with environment work (considering this is what I would be doing if unemployed) and until their funding level hits the next level.
So, how do I possibly come up with a figure that will be good for me and sound affordable to them?
also, yay, probably going to get my first job :poly142:
Sorry if this doesn't make perfect sense as I'm quite emotionally and physically drained right now. Basically I need some opinions on my situation.
Some backstory. A few months ago I was contacted by a guy who I worked with for a short while on a popular mod. He said that they were creating a standalone game down the same vein as the mod, and they were possibly interested in buying a model I had done previously. I talked with their lead guy, told them how much I would let the model go for and offered my services as a freelancer. He explained that they did not have any funds until they ran their kickstarter, but expressed interest in possibly hiring me to do some high poly models in the future.
A few months down the line their kickstarter ended at something around 230% funded. I started talking to the guy again. He asked if I had any examples of any environment work I've done. I showed him some stuff. I have yet to finish an entire environment. It's what I am currently actively learning. Most of my work is hard surface hero assets... guns, vehicles etc. But he was impressed with what he saw, saying "My gut tells me your one of the best candidates we have had in a while and I am pretty sold on your skill set." They need environment artists most, but I wouldn't be limited to that role only. However, I feel like I am not as confident with environment stuff, lacking experience. I can produce props and stuff no problem. I just have limited experience with things like foliage and making really nice tiled textures.
I was posed the question: how much would I need to earn, baseline, to begin work even part time. I was told that they would be releasing on steam early access some time down the line, so I figure they would like me to give them a lower figure until their funding is boosted to the next level. I am happy to work for a lower rate considering my lack of experience with environment work, given that they can help me reach the high standards I hold myself to.
My problem lies in the question of a starting place for payment. It feels like an almost arbitrary decision. I read on the wiki that something like £18/hr is the lower amount people tend to charge for freelance. This is what I initially, a few months ago, posed to them as my desired rate. I'm thinking that I would be happy to work for less than this while I get more confident with environment work (considering this is what I would be doing if unemployed) and until their funding level hits the next level.
So, how do I possibly come up with a figure that will be good for me and sound affordable to them?
also, yay, probably going to get my first job :poly142:
Replies
I would base it around your free time and their deadlines or soft/hard deadlines.
If they force you (more based on your skill and not them, usually) lose sleep over completing tasks (a long while ago I dealt with this) then the price goes up.
Also just for general knowledge lack of sleep or no sleep after a while causes brain damage you really shouldn't ever do it but to each his/her own.
Back OT:
230% is a nice amount, possibly enough for the 2nd cycle if they planned well and ahead, I guess 18 would be good since your not too comfortable and as long as they know this then you all should be in a good standing. Though, once you progress into a more comfortable status with your envi (:p) skills then you can renegotiate your hourly.
Hope that helped any, I tried to anyway using my own past employments and things said on PC so hopefully this can help even a little bit.
Does that sound fair?
I think it makes more sense for the company/studio to take care of that without you involved and they should own it too to be fair. Maintenance/updates/license whatever hassle shouldn't be on you.
Unless you work at home but that would mean you're still a freelance and not a full time employed?
It's hard to know if this would be considered freelance or not. When I think of freelance I think of being given set tasks for a set price. It sounds like they want to pay me monthly just to work. Which sounds like employment to me. But I am again assuming I would have to sort my own taxes etc out, considering they are a Canadian company making their first (commercial) kickstarted game (so no HR or accountant team or anything). So I'm not sure if I would count as self employed for tax purposes.
£18 an hour works out at a gross yearly income of £35k... which sounds like an awful lot considering my experience and their funding. Fair enough charge more if you have to fill the gaps of unemployment, but if I can get a guarantee of extended work from them, then that's no issue. I'd be working on environment stuff for my portfolio anyway, so my idea is tell them £13 an hour for as many hours as they can afford, and work on developing my environment for my portfolio in the downtime. This'll help me land a studio job down the line and make me feel happier about asking for more money when their funding increases.
Does this all sound reasonable? Basically I just don't want to scare them off by being unreasonable.
I guess you don't want to seem greedy but that's wrong , they are not your friends, they are clients and you just can't underbid because you are scared you won't get the job.
You are totally wrong about the way you calculate yearly wage. You will be working from home that means you will pay for everything (health care, electricity,rent, software, hardware ect), and what happens if they don't order models for a few weeks??
Selling your work for 13 pounds an hour you'd be better off sweeping floors...
You'll be working freelance in the EU, that means you will have to make a company, pay taxes, you are obliged to get health care, retirement planning (it'll take about 20% of your income that you will have to save up or you'll have people knocking on your door to take your shit), no paid holidays and no unemployment money.
Here's a realistic number that will allow you to barely make it and maybe pay your dentist bills or buy your girlfriend a small gift for christmass: no less then 200£ a day. so about 25£ an hour, and it is a very cheap wage, the cheapest.
Asking that little money in regard of your work that is pretty decent makes you look weak and people will treat you as if you are disposable, not to mention you are killing the market for other artists that have bills to pay.
MAN UP !
The thing about future work is that my choices are this or continue working on my portfolio. It's not quite finished yet so I am extremely lucky to be given the chance to work. Considering I've had no money of my own for 18 months now and my bank is also demanding money back I have no way of paying otherwise. I'd rather err on the side of caution. When their funding is higher and my portfolio is done I can always walk away if they aren't happy to discuss higher wages.
I mean, I guess it depends on how secure I can make this position. I don't know how the law works in this regard. It's very hard to fire someone in the UK after a grace period. If I don't have job security and they intend to treat this more like casual freelance than guaranteed 2 years or so work then I am inclined to ask for more.
On the other hand, if I ask for a lot per hour they might just say they can only afford to pay me part-time. Really it's about balancing their funding with what I am willing to work for.
Remember that freelancing isn't permanent and you need to save, always have enough to live for 6 months or more without a job (even in the UK unless there is some kind of redundancy/pay out for them letting you go in your negotiated contract then they can just let you go one day with no notice. you don't have the same employment protection that an employee has).
One thing to find out before you suggest a rate is if you would be paid overtime? if not set a daily rate instead of hourly, daily rates are easier to keep track of anyway.
also find out what is going on with software (are they supplying licenses?) and add that to your own costs.
if this is your first gig in a while, I'd use it as a stepping stone and focus on securing and making new clients/opportunities whilst working. That said, be careful with crowdfunded companies, make sure they are paying you ontime & not just dropping work on you at the last moment (causing you to work overtime).
As a freelancer unless they are paying for it or it is in the contract, you shouldn't need to work overtime unless you are failing to hit an agreed deadline. Make sure your scheduled tasks are reasonable and doable, you will be thankful for the extra freetime to work on securing more clients.
This is my first gig. I am in the process of finishing up my portfolio, so until that's finished I can't really job hunt. Ideally I would get a studio job. So if they don't want to pay me full-time, I would be working on finishing my portfolio in the downtime.
So maybe I should work out a daily rate based on average income, add 30%, maybe take a bit off considering my lack of experience and let them decide how many days a month they want to pay me for?
EDIT: I worked out that charging £16/hr pays about £31k a year (average studio seems to be 24K), and after tax, national insurance and student loans that works out at around £23k takehome. So if I tell them for £120 a day they can have me for as many days a month they like, does that sound fair?
EDIT EDIT: I forgot to calculate the lack of paid holiday in. I ended up with an hourly rate of £18/hr which is actually what I originally quoted them.
You are getting posts with solid advice here. Take it.
Don't let a "lack of experience" equal a non-livable wage. (not saying the polycount wiki = what you need to live, but just take it all into account.) When I got my first offer I sold myself short too many $$$s an hour because it was my first industry gig and I thought I had to inorder to be competitive, then I ended up having a bad time in California.
If you need X amount to live/be happy you should ask for that. No one can blame you for wanting that.
Gratz on the gig/offer!! Im stoked for you!
What I offered them per hour will be plenty livable. It's up to them how many hours they offer me - when I'm not working for them I can be producing a full environment for my portfolio, which will allow me to hunt for further work.
When I emailed them I was clear that I lacked experience with environments (I have no reason to believe I will struggle picking it up). They seemed plenty convinced by the work I showed them though. Because this will most likely be like working in a team remotely, letting them know in advance means they won't be shocked if I'm like "hey, any advice on this?" or whatever. I did remind them how strong my hard surface skills are, which is what I was originally talking with them about doing.
Gratz on your success though, ghaz!
After my first payday I'm tempted to get a little itsy bitsy greentooth tattoo as a record of the community that got me to where I am
Anyway, your satisfied number when you start is going to be low. That's our nature as humans, we undervalue our time. It's ok to start low. I started at 1/4 the amount I earn now per hour
That is why the short contract length is important, so when an opportunity comes along you can take it without burning any bridges.