Is It Not Politically Correct to Have an Opinion on Software?
polycounter lvl 10
Hi polycount. I'll get right to the point. It seems to me that when a poster comes to the forum and asks for advice on which piece of software does the forum think is best, whether it be game engines, or content creation software, that the only answer that won't be frowned upon by a certain group of regulars on here, is "different tools for different work, decide for yourself".
Which to me, would be a frustrating answer to receive if I were to go to a specialist forum of the topic at hand and ask for people's personal opinions. In other words if I went to a forum about cars and asked which car manufacturer was best to order a special vehicle from, I would want to hear people say , "Ford...because X" or "Toyota...because Y" I would not want to hear. "Well they all have made an important contribution and they all have their strong points, you aught to search your soul for your own answer". I'm sorry but that kind of advice seems ambiguous and useless.
I was practically chased out of here a year ago by a group of guys who would always come out of the wood work and make personal attacks vs me whenever I expressed an opinion that Unreal Engine 4 was the best engine available. Instead of refuting my claims about the engine, they'd just call me names. And it's not one guy, there is a group of them who take turns making personal attacks on me whenever I have an opinion about software. It's incredible.
I've never harassed ANYONE on this site. Or picked a fight. Or derailed a thread. Or called someone a bad name. And yet I'm being constantly called a troll by this group of guys I mentioned earlier just for saying that my opinion is that Unreal 4 is the best game engine ever made. That's my opinion. And I have reasoning to back the opinion up. Is there only reason that I'm "a troll" that I'm not giving a politically correct response?
And you know how it is, if someone calls you a troll there isn't anything you can say to refute it effectively. And at the same time I will never stop giving my honest opinion to someone who is willing to ask for it.
Which to me, would be a frustrating answer to receive if I were to go to a specialist forum of the topic at hand and ask for people's personal opinions. In other words if I went to a forum about cars and asked which car manufacturer was best to order a special vehicle from, I would want to hear people say , "Ford...because X" or "Toyota...because Y" I would not want to hear. "Well they all have made an important contribution and they all have their strong points, you aught to search your soul for your own answer". I'm sorry but that kind of advice seems ambiguous and useless.
I was practically chased out of here a year ago by a group of guys who would always come out of the wood work and make personal attacks vs me whenever I expressed an opinion that Unreal Engine 4 was the best engine available. Instead of refuting my claims about the engine, they'd just call me names. And it's not one guy, there is a group of them who take turns making personal attacks on me whenever I have an opinion about software. It's incredible.
I've never harassed ANYONE on this site. Or picked a fight. Or derailed a thread. Or called someone a bad name. And yet I'm being constantly called a troll by this group of guys I mentioned earlier just for saying that my opinion is that Unreal 4 is the best game engine ever made. That's my opinion. And I have reasoning to back the opinion up. Is there only reason that I'm "a troll" that I'm not giving a politically correct response?
And you know how it is, if someone calls you a troll there isn't anything you can say to refute it effectively. And at the same time I will never stop giving my honest opinion to someone who is willing to ask for it.
This discussion has been closed.
Replies
Basically the only problem is I think when you generally write is that you're not framing it as "In my opinion.. Unreal Engine 4 is the best currently available engine," which is more acceptable than Unreal Engine 4 is the best available engine. The second is stating it as a universal truth such as 1+1=2, the first is expressing a personal opinion that may be backed by statements, insights, and facts of what the engine currently is capable of.
You might be fine with just stating that it's your opinion UE4 is the best engine available, which will prevent people from arguing with you that Unity or whatever is better because blah blah / further derailment.
It's just an etiquette of speaking in an academic manner, akin to research papers that present a solid theory and underline it with supporting facts and statements from different sources versus someone that says the Mona Lisa is the best painting ever made.
I hope that makes sense/helps a bit. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and the ability to present them in a public discussion.
Also, "best game engine ever made" is a bit of an exageration, and a lot of the users around these forums would consider such a claim to be a clear indication of a lack of experience. A lot of the 3D veterans on these boards have seen engines come and go. For them Unreal Engine 4 is another engine. It might be a very good engine, but at this point few of them would be willing to confer on it "Best Engine Evar!" status.
We all have our personal opinions. But sometimes you need to learn to temper your enthusiasm when communicating those opinions to others. It's less a matter of censorship than it is learning how your communication influences those around you. I often have to temper my enthusiasm for programming when I'm talking to my friends and family. Most of them aren't coders, and when I start talking about technical details, they find it extremely boring. They aren't trying to be rude, it's just not a subject they are interested in.
As far as Engines go, between UE4 and Unity, you can't break it down as simply as "x" is better (or the "best"). They do things differently, so depending on the situation, one may be more appropriate than the other. Without making note of the advantages and disadvantages, it comes off as being a subjective opinion versus an objective opinion.
When I'm seeking information, I'm seeking unbiased information, as that helps educate me in a way I can make an informed decision.
1 - Throw out blanket statements like "Unreal 4 is the best game engine ever made", which are pretty much meaningless and only end up annoying everybody ;
2 - Take the time to explain why, from your experience, a certain toolset is more appropriate than an other for a given task, thus providing useful insight. And if you feel like someone is refuting your opinion on the matter for no good reason, just move on, you have nothing to prove.
It's as simple as that !
3 - tell everyone that everything is awesome and cool.
3 is generally the politically safest approach in a studio environment.
Yup, pretty much this.
Giving other people advice on what software to use is a tricky business unless they're asking for a specific tool that exists only in a specific program. And even then, there are bound to be fifteen other programs that do the exact same thing in a different way.
As far as why people tend to shy away from giving other people advice? That's pretty simple. This shit devolves into 20-page discussion/flamewar threads quickly, especially if someone says something along the lines of "What's better, Max or Maya?"
By your post history you seem to like to post statements that rarely contribute to the discussion at hand ( wich gives the impression that you are probably 17 years old ) and i havent seen a single one with art...
I remember reading a post of yours where you called those who recommend non-Unreal game engines as hipsters. I consider that name calling. Many people in that same thread took time out of their day explaining to you why for that particular case Unreal was not an ideal engine.
What is there to refute? This is all hyperbole.
And this is why everyone just rolls their eyes, You've known about the Unreal engine for a little over a year and it's the best engine ever made? I've known about it for 15 years, I think it's great but it's not the be-all and end-all.
They way you talk borders on the way a religious fundamentalist talks, it is very off putting.
Also self admittedly you only worked with unreal for a few months, and prolly no longer with any other engine. There are lots of people on this site that have been working with unreal since UE1 or 2 and have experience with other engines. Who can provide much more in depth pros and cons of engines and who won't do blanket statements saying engine X is the best engine.
I'm not saying that's what you do, but anybody who makes a statement such as "UE4 is the best engine ever!" can appear to come off as that. My advice would be to make a game prototype in Unity then make a game prototype in UE4 as the only way to actually understand the differences between different tools is to sit down and learn how to use them.
But back on track. The main issue I gather is that in the past there have been many XYZ program vs ABC threads popup and they usually end in fan boy flame wars instead of actual discussion. So to shy away from that a lot of people here are apprehensive when they see new threads pop up along the same line. Don't sweat it man.
I'd definitely reconsider how you phrase your posts and take the time to contribute objective reviews of whatever product you're advocating and people will take you more seriously.:)
You can usually tell, too. Do they ask "What software is best?" or "what software is industry standard". There is a vast difference in the 2 questions.
"i like this more because of that"
and
"it's the best, can't be better, i have wet dreams, that's how great it is"
you make yourself look like someone who has actually no idea what he is talking about, and you did it on every possible occasion. It feels like you read on the internet that it is THE BEST and now you are parroting it as a fact, which can never be questioned.
you like unreal best from all engines you used, we got it
there are times when unreal is not the best choice, there are other times when it is. it's just not that simple as "it's the best, of them all, nothing can compete, and everyone can just run after it, nobody will be better"
i don't know how many games you shipped with unreal, or other engines, but to be honest it never sounded like you had any real production experiences. Because hands down, all engines can be horribly shitty at times.
i think it's great that you have an opinion but you must be kidding yourself when you constantly assert it against dozens of people who very clearly have more experience than you. why would anyone care about your loud opinion over other peoples' opinions, many of which have substantial studio experience to back their claims up? did you genuinely think you were dropping truth bombs with your absolutely opinionated posts?
hope this helps
edit:
...
seriously
Dear sir;
Careful now. Did you not read the original post? Before throwing dirt on others based on their wisest opinion, keep your posts civil and pleasant And ask them why it is awesome. This was suppose to be a helping community so please dont be a dick by definition.
As for the op; I usually check out the reviews, read the on going discussions, developer interviews and FAQs to make my decision. In all honesty, I find every game engine comes with a catch so its best for me to code one, unless I just want to mess around with one.
I dont get in to such diussions much anymore because those trolls you speak of will diss you in the thread and when you ignore it, they would start pming you rapidly. It becomes a pain in the ass to be very honest especially when there is favoritism involved.
So my suggestion to you my good lad is not to post where it is not necessary.
Kind regards.
See ? now im actually beeing a dick.
Personally I think there's no need to ask. Just do a google search and most of the time you'll find enough insight of each software, their pro's and con's, without having to lift finger.I know I've been searching and reading about Modo for years and most opinions I found, guess what, are here on this site
Plus one to that.
The fact of the matter is our original critiques explained why his actions made him look like a fool.
Yet he still believes that it's something to do with political correctness.
Joao said nothing wrong Nitewalkr, he is simply stating the reason why people have consistently responded negatively to Pancakes posts. You on the other-hand have resorted to silly name calling while simultaneously asking for a civil "pleasant" discussion.
Sheltering yourself from discussion is rarely a good thing. Pancake has not been having discussions, he has simply been making unsubstantiated claims as facts.
If you had done much research into what many people here have been discussing you'd have a more productive advice. Not interacting with the community is hardly good advice for someone who is looking to solve a communication issue.
That was actually a sound advice in your last paragraph but dont you think a good advice should have been to walk away from the discussion when the discussion is turned in to personal war? Stuff like "You are a brilliant troll," "Oh you are a seventeen year old kid," "And I am suppose to take the advice from someone who is living in his/her mom's basement," "Oh...you.....just...stop" and so on, are actually the trigger of it.
Although; I agree that one should have done the research before diving in to any discussion, I seriously hate the community singling one person or a group of people (who have communication issues,) out and have them cornered, rather then helping them out blend in to the community helping them out in their communication problems. Therefore; The reason for me to post here and in the other thread where it all started. A simple advice here should have been a simple PM to Pankakes explaining him not to get involved in to the conversation if he doesn't have enough proof to support his opinions.
I apologize for my comment (which was general and not directed to anyone, being clear on that.) I quoted his post to give an example of being a "Dick by definition," but it shouldn't matter because he became one in his next post. What does that tell you, he is not wrong?
Lets read that post again shall we?
another quote from the same person;
So after reading those two capped context of his post I am not suppose to react to any of it and take his post in a pleasant manner. Really? lol, he is also very wrong in the last line of his first post and I would guarantee you that no one will correct him.
I'll end my conversation here because you seem to have his side and a biased mind to be very honest, and it will lead to a wrong end.
Have a nice day
Kind regards
gotta agree with @whats_true Learning Unity/Unreal is great but if you don't make art to put into them its just a really cool editor you can fly around in.
that's my opinion of course
Pedro I don't know you at all but I've loved your humor over the years haha.
That said, The thread title is not really an honest question, in my opinion, instead I read it as the already loaded opening line for an essay that could be titled "the world according to me". "Political Correctness" has a certain ring to it. Maybe I'm reading to much into it, based on Pancakes' online persona, but for me the title alone shows a skewed perspective. There is one superior engine, and then there are other inferior "handicapped" ones, but you can't stand up and boldly say the truth that should be spoken, because it's not politically correct. And now they are out to get him, because he dared to raise his voice.
As I see it he climbed on a soap box and preached, often making it sound like an absolute truth and using pompous and sometimes even offensive language. His credentials are unclear and his advice often seems questionable. When problems with his advice were pointed out neutrally, it was him who shifted up a gear (at least in the case I saw) instead of making any substantial point in favor of his argument, which could have been used to demonstrate deeper knowledge of the topic.
If you're hurling insults from your soap box, people are seldom inclined to take you to the side in a calm and friendly manner afterwards and explain to you privately what you did wrong. (This wouldn't help impressionable listeners of your speech either.)
They'll yell back, and sometimes a couple of them. And they'll remember and will react quicker the next time.
They literally would not stop singing the praises of Maya. It got awkward and disruptive.
I completely agree.