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Katzes All New Workshop

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polycounter lvl 17
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katzeimsack polycounter lvl 17
I'm planning to work more on DOTA from now on.
Not only posting final assets but also a lot of work in progress.
Hope you give some feedback or ask me about my workflow :)

My latest finished sets:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=265734981
timber_turn.gif

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=292616057
lycan_i_turn.gif

Last posts from the Workshop thread:
Starting a tiny level 4 version.
Concept so far:
tiny_lvl4_concept.jpg
"finished" the first part (right arm). I will tweak it after i've got all parts this far.
Worked as planned, lowpoly is nearly 100% decimationmaster and texture 100% bake, even the glow was a lightbake in max. :)

tiny_lvl4_armr01.jpg
tiny_lvl4_body01.jpg

still just baking, I'll add a gradient and a ageneral texturing/readability pass after all parts are finished.

Replies

  • katzeimsack
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    katzeimsack polycounter lvl 17
    Got a test version ingame to check the look with animations and the camera.
    No masks / texturing yet.

    tiny_lvl4_body02.jpg



    Quite funny to see lvl1 tiny with the big lvl4 head :D

    tiny_lvl4_body03.jpg
  • Insaneophobia
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    Insaneophobia polycounter lvl 5
    Mother of god that looks awesome, he looks like a boss in some game or something! :D
  • Prosomogy
  • vertical
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    vertical polycounter lvl 9
    It looks great! Could you also recolour it to default tiny colours with a gold/teal glow?
  • Nikey
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    Nikey polycounter lvl 10
    Oh boy, it looks great! No masks and looks good, keep it up!
  • Gajun
    All your sets are FREAKING AWESOME. That is easily the best Tiny set out there.

    Are you going to add wolf summons for your lycan set?
  • down_limit
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    down_limit polycounter lvl 10
    To be honest, this Tiny is suitable for the StarLadder tournament much more than existing now ... :D
  • Vovosunt
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    Vovosunt polycounter lvl 4
    OMG you goddamned kitty cat! That shit is AMAZING!
    VOLVO ADD THIS AND GIFF ME ONE!

    But seriously this is the best Tiny set around and it probably will be for a long time.
    Keep up the freaking awesome job! :D
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    So perfectly fitting ! Nice job man :)
  • Darren Pinard
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    Darren Pinard polycounter lvl 3
    Really love the tiny but I'd get closers to his base colors, looks like a different hero.

    Unless you're going for arcana or bust.

    Keep up the great work.
  • katzeimsack
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    katzeimsack polycounter lvl 17
    @Gajun: I can neither upload the true form nor the summon. Dota requests custom animations as default. Contacted Valve but nothing happens. If anyone has connections to valve guys, would be cool to tell them about it. I can't imagine the way lycan is intragrated in the workshop is on purpose.

    @vertical: Planned :)

    @Insanophobia + Prosomogy + Vovo + pior: Thanks!

    @Darren: Actually that's what I planned. I'll probably upload two color variations to the workshop and the let the community + valve decide.

    @down_limit: Thanks, if they contact me I wouldn't mind ;)
  • Darren Pinard
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    Darren Pinard polycounter lvl 3
    Hey,

    For the lycan summons, as long as you modeled and skinned them to the original in game skeleton you can rip the in game aminations out with crowbar and feed them back into the workshop uploader in FBX format.

    I did this for Beast Master summons. I can explain further if you need more details.
  • phenix3d
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    phenix3d polycounter lvl 5
    it's so magic i'm very interested by this but don't know the right pipeline
  • phenix3d
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    phenix3d polycounter lvl 5
  • katzeimsack
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    katzeimsack polycounter lvl 17
    @ darren: I tried this for the true form with GCFScape+Cannonfooder's and it didn't work. (error message without any description) Any tips?
  • Darren Pinard
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    Darren Pinard polycounter lvl 3
    I've had nothing but trouble with cannonfodder, Crowbar is a much more stable application.

    The way I did it was to rip the .mdl with crowbar then load the .smd animation files into 3dsMax. Select all the bones and controllers and then Save out the animations as XML motion files. You have to do this one by one.

    After this I loaded the base skeletons as downloaded from the Dota technical requirements site. Again select all the bones and controllers and load these new XMLs onto the skeletons. Save them out individually as brand new .FBX files.

    Use these FBX files for the importer. Its a longer workflow but I avoided the errors like this.

    Hope this helps!
  • katzeimsack
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    katzeimsack polycounter lvl 17
    Thanks! I'll try it out :)

    Still hope valve will fix it one day. Won't help me, but manybe somebody else. Just makes no sense to set animations to required.
  • katzeimsack
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    katzeimsack polycounter lvl 17
    wip.gif
    Still some texturing needed, but already like the look :)
    I'll upload it to the workshop tomorrow, looking forward to see if people like the different tiny look.
    If they do, i've got everything i need to creat the other levels :)
  • bounchfx
    really fantastic looking, best tiny I've seen yet, the rocks feel great.
  • Nikey
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    Nikey polycounter lvl 10
    Great one! I'm pretty sure people will love it, so start to make other levels already :)
  • PrivacyEnt
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    PrivacyEnt triangle
    It looks awesome !
  • katzeimsack
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    katzeimsack polycounter lvl 17
    Thanks :)

    Finished my presentation scene..
    wip2.gif
  • Konras
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    Konras polycounter lvl 12
    That Tiny totally rocks!! Seeing such great ultimate form I am only sad that there is possibility to mix elements. That would me much better if slots would be connected to forms rather than body parts. Perfect idea with inner glow. That came out unbelievably good :)
  • Insaneophobia
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    Insaneophobia polycounter lvl 5
    PeskyReadyIndianspinyloach.gif
    Awesome job dude!
  • vertical
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    vertical polycounter lvl 9
    Phenominal work mate!
  • katzeimsack
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    katzeimsack polycounter lvl 17
    Thanks for all the feedback :)
    I teamed up with Team Empire and submitted Level 4.

    tiny_turntable.gif

    i_l4_armsmall.jpgi_l4_arm.jpg
    i_l4_head.jpgi_l4_armor.jpg
  • bounchfx
    wait.. was this for Empire from the start? or did you give it to them after the fact? and if so..... why?

    just curious! came out great.
  • kendmd
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    kendmd polycounter lvl 5
  • Nikey
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    Nikey polycounter lvl 10
    Great one! I love this rocks! Can't wait to see other levels!
  • Pastat7
    Like the textures ! Good job overall!
  • Spudnik
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    Spudnik polycounter lvl 11
    Yeah, gotta echo bounch here...
    If, or rather, when this gets in, it'll be on the merit of your work alone and not the association with Team Empire who in the past have employed some quite shady tactics on the workshop. I really don't like the idea of them getting payed for not doing any work, but this also perpetuates a trend that the workshop community is trying to fight against where outside organizations wanting to make a quick and easy buck promise 'upvotes/views/etc.' in return for percentage share on an item they had no hand in the making of. Especially since these upvotes/views/etc have absolutely no influence on whether or not an item gets accepted.
  • Shock
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    Shock polycounter lvl 5
    /sign what spudnik said.
    but the set looks great mate :)
  • Vayne4800
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    Vayne4800 polycounter lvl 3
    /sign what Spudnik said!

    Looking forward for the rest of the forms!
  • Gajun
    What I don't like about team/pro sets is that they actually seem to take longer to get into the game and they cost too much. Ticket sets seems to be the best at the moment, or getting picked in a chest.
  • katzeimsack
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    katzeimsack polycounter lvl 17
    I'm glad you like my set and it's doing well in the workshop :)

    Team Empire asked me and I think the tiny especially in the dark/red colors fits perfectly.

    I'm still really new to the workshop. I released two sets and 3 items (not counting my two sets last year, that totally ignored the artstyle). I don't have a lot of subscribers and didn't get any set into DOTA yet, even though they were critically acclaimed. So I just want to try out what works for me. Get a few more subscribers, maybe get valve to notice what I'm doing, get some reputation etc.
  • Spudnik
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    Spudnik polycounter lvl 11
    Get a few more subscribers, maybe get valve to notice what I'm doing, get some reputation etc.

    That's what I was trying to articulate in the last post, great art rises to the top naturally, team/player/organization has very little influence there. But more importantly, votes are not a deciding factor for what gets in vs what doesn't. I've had 2-3 items in the top 100 voted of all time for more than a year now, and they aren't any closer to getting in than something somebody is gonna upload today. What irks me is that guys like Empire are basically getting free money by preying on the insecurities of new/unknowing people.
  • Konras
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    Konras polycounter lvl 12
    Just to clear things out EmpiteTV.Heaven had no connection with Team Empire. He was a mod on some kind of streaming website associated with Team Empire. Later he was thrown out of this website but refused to change nick and so on. He basicly worked alone. So if everyone here is bashing Team Empire because of EmpireTV.Heaven they should not. As for Katzeimsack point of view I can agree. Experimenting is always good in my opinion. Especially at the beginning to know what to focus on next :)

    On the side note what I can say from my experience is that:
    - I think votes don't matter I had some sets accepted that had small (~200) number of part votes (positive rating were high however. Maybe that is more important for Valve)
    - Most sets are now published in bundles so popularity of single sets in such bundle don't have impact of revenue for that artist (revenue is split equally between all sets in bundle)
    - Valve accepts sets that are even 2 years old (my faceless void was accepted after almost 2 years with many other void sets accepted in between). So I would not be surprised if Katze's Timber would hit store eventually :)
    - also one advice at the end that is most important and was mentioned many times by Valve in feedback to users. Ingame view is most important. Gradients, clear forms, not-noisy textures with to much detail, wise distribution of detailed areas on model. I believe this greatly increases possibility to have your set included into game.

    Sorry for to long post. I hope Katzeimsack your not mad for this spam ^^'
  • katzeimsack
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    katzeimsack polycounter lvl 17
    I've seen good stuff not rising because of the vote system. The first two days items of guys with little workshop friends only get a few votes. Thoses few votes make them really vulnerable to a few hate votes you always get. Without a +96% like ratio an asset doesn't get on page one and therefore hardly gets any views except friends and polycount.

    But I managed to get up without help already with timber and lycan, that wasn't the reason.
    Just wanted to try something new.
    My timbersaw is place 22 of most liked of all time, probably in the top 5 this year, it has a crazy 175k views and still didn't get in. Not sure if valve didn't like it or just didn't see it, or will add it in a year. Maybe with Team Empire they notice it, maybe they don't. Hard to know.. after all it seems like there is a lot of luck involved.

    @Konras: Thanks for the long post :)
  • Konras
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    Konras polycounter lvl 12
    8k votes, 2,5k comments on Tiny. I guess that means there is a green light for other levels and aghanims tree? :) I can't wait!!
  • katzeimsack
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    katzeimsack polycounter lvl 17
    I'm really happy how the community loves my tiny :D

    Spend roughly 8 hours on lvl3 tiny and the bake turned out so good, that I'm not sure if I'll spend any time on texturing. I'll check how he looks ingame and in Marmoset tomorrow and then decide.
    tiny_lvl3.jpg
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Well done man :) As for collaboration with third parties, it's a bit of a double edged sword really.

    On one hand, I do agree with Spudnik and Konras - the quality is what matters above all, and I doubt that being associated with an organization makes much of a difference in terms of votes and ratings. (well, unless the votes are "semi-rigged" with some kind of incentive or reward, which I suppose might be a way to inflate numbers, but that's not exactly a good practice and only brings bad reputation anyways). As for a third parties claiming that being associated with them will guarantee that the item will get in, that's just not true - for instance, the ability icons and custom levels that Motenai and I created for our RTZ Naga set did not make their way into the game despite the set being done with EG.

    On the other hand ... collaborating with a third party can be a fun experience, as it can bring interesting design requirements and a deadline to stick to. That can be motivating.

    But all that being said and after giving it some thoughts over the last few months, I think that a collaboration with (for ?) a third party should really not grant the organization a revenue share. They put zero work into the making of the item, so I don't see why they should get any money in return (the whole idea of 50/50 split "because of the added exposure" is just plain wrong in my opinion)... Having their name attached to a cool custom set is a great value to them already from a brand and marketing standpoint ; If anything, one could argue that third parties should actually *pay* artists for their efforts, as opposed to receiving a part of the revenue cake.

    Anyways, that's just my general opinion and it's a bit of a case by case situation. Sorry for the derail :) Great work man, can't wait to see it ingame !
  • Drew Carrymore
    Are you going to make an aghs upgrade for it? I think it would look cool with a burnt out tree with magma glowing out the cracks. Looking forward to the other forms!
  • Vayne4800
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    Vayne4800 polycounter lvl 3
    pior wrote: »
    Well done man :) As for collaboration with third parties, it's a bit of a double edged sword really.

    On one hand, I do agree with Spudnik and Konras - the quality is what matters above all, and I doubt that being associated with an organization makes much of a difference in terms of votes and ratings. (well, unless the votes are "semi-rigged" with some kind of incentive or reward, which I suppose might be a way to inflate numbers, but that's not exactly a good practice and only brings bad reputation anyways). As for a third parties claiming that being associated with them will guarantee that the item will get in, that's just not true - for instance, the ability icons and custom levels that Motenai and I created for our RTZ Naga set did not make their way into the game despite the set being done with EG.

    On the other hand ... collaborating with a third party can be a fun experience, as it can bring interesting design requirements and a deadline to stick to. That can be motivating.

    But all that being said and after giving it some thoughts over the last few months, I think that a collaboration with (for ?) a third party should really not grant the organization a revenue share. They put zero work into the making of the item, so I don't see why they should get any money in return (the whole idea of 50/50 split "because of the added exposure" is just plain wrong in my opinion)... Having their name attached to a cool custom set is a great value to them already from a brand and marketing standpoint ; If anything, one could argue that third parties should actually *pay* artists for their efforts, as opposed to receiving a part of the revenue cake.

    Anyways, that's just my general opinion and it's a bit of a case by case situation. Sorry for the derail :) Great work man, can't wait to see it ingame !

    This sums it up nicely.
  • Konras
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    Konras polycounter lvl 12
    Wow I must say that blody impressive. It looks perfect for 8hr. I imagine most parts were reused from lvl4 but still non the less it looks awesome! One thing that right now came to my mind is that comparing lvl3 small and big arms I need to say that small one is a lot more readable from distance. It has bigger/clear elements, less cracks and small details that produce a little noise. I think its worth seeing is reducing the amount of those dark cracks or blending theme more into body color would affect the readability of forms in game in positive way. I should not say this probably so late thought :/

    On the side topic:

    Well I cant say I would agree with Pior on that one. I mean I would love to agree but I am afraid that's not possible and teams will never agree on such deals.
    It works like this everywhere. If you want to make advantage of someone else brand you need to pay for it. Same thing goes if yu one to make any reference to real people/celebrities in your products. Even in sports for example Nike pays 'Ronaldo' that he will play in their shoes not the other way around. Put this in the perspective we are like Nike, we prepare products, not shoes obviously that they use but sets they play with.

    One thing that could be done in my opinion is that deals with pro teams could have an agreement that team will use this set for given time period. Similar to how 'Ronaldo' is obligated to play in Nike shoes :)

    In the end we could also think who benefit from exposure. Team that can monetize their popularity in any way or creator that after successfully set might actually put quality of his work in light?
  • Shock
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    Shock polycounter lvl 5
    will u also make an aghanims weapon slot for him?
  • katzeimsack
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    katzeimsack polycounter lvl 17
    Thanks for the feedback and I like the dicussion going on here :D

    @ Drew + shock: I guess i have to in order to get a complete set.. Burned tree sounds like a good idea.
  • katzeimsack
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    katzeimsack polycounter lvl 17
    Added Level 3 :)
    I'll be happy when this is over! Uploading one set in Dota is annoying, but uploading 4 levels which all are bascially sets.. Takes ages :(

    tiny_turntable_l3.gif

    i_l3_arml.jpgi_l3_arm.jpg
    i_l3_head.jpgi_l3_armor.jpg
  • Vayne4800
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    Vayne4800 polycounter lvl 3
    A bit of complaint here. Putting the stuff on the workshop in installments is worse than spamming at once, imo. Could try and make the rest hidden or something? Or just upload whatever remains in one go? Otherwise we will end up with a month or two with your stuff taking half the first page for a while.
  • katzeimsack
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    katzeimsack polycounter lvl 17
    I agree and I'm sorry :/

    I'll release level 1 and 2 together this weekend. Not sure when I'll find the time to release the tree, but it's a single item, so not likely to block the front row.

    I don't want to hide them, not sure how this would change my chances to get ingame..
    I hope Valve fixes this problem soon. Especially tiny with the massive amount of assets..
  • katzeimsack
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    katzeimsack polycounter lvl 17
    tiny_turntable_l1234.gif
    Finally finished ALL levels. Fuck, tiny is a hell lot of work..
    Still need to do the fucking tree D:
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