Unpaid work and studio vs freelance

GreenBeams

Hey guys,

I'm currently just starting out (5mths) and this is what i've done so far

Please forgive my ignorance but i'm wondering if you could clear something up for me? As far as i can tell, studio jobs are really hard to come by (for a beginner like me, anyway) and freelance seems catered towards hand painted, mobile games.
Is that a fair assumption or am i being naiive?

Also, given where i'm at in my progress, would you recommend trying to find unpaid work that would take me? I've received mixed comments from very established artists about not giving your time for free but it would still be experience. Comparatively, someone contacted me a while back to help make an mmo. They wanted me to start modelling on anything i could but disappeared when i wanted to see their existing models so i could match the art style.

Myabe it would just be better to decide either "Environment&Props" or "Character" and just keep blasting out the monthly challenges here.

Sorry if this sounds confused and whiney but please, any help would be greatly appreciated! Be as brutal as you like - even if it's a case of "your work just isn't good enough to apply anywhere - keep practicing and ask again when you think you've improved"

All the best.

SuperFranky

On the subject of working for free [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWXYoD7wfOs"]Welcome to Stephen Silver's Art Inspiration Channel - Protect your art career - YouTube[/ame]

http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/forum/graphic-design/resources/24519-don-t-work-for-free-read-this-post-from-a-craigslist-artist

Does free freelance work count as experience in your resume?
I think joining an indie mod or something is a nice idea, helps you build connections and experience in working under constraints...

Joost

Don't expect to get any jobs if you only started 5 months ago. Doing unpaid work, I.e. working on an indie game or mod is a great way to get experience. I'm not sure why anyone would be against that, unless you mean working for free for a studio or doing freelance for free. That's a whole different story.

Meloncov

Working on mods or similar hobbyist projects is great experience, and absolutely worth doing. What you should avoid is any sort of unpaid work on a commercial project.

Also, don't do unpaid work on an mmo. If they don't have the resources to pay you, they don't have the resources to make an mmo.

GreenBeams

SuperFranky wrote: »

On the subject of working for free :
Does free freelance work count as experience in your resume?
I think joining an indie mod or something is a nice idea, helps you build connections and experience in working under constraints...

Wow, that was quite powerful, thanks! it certainly makes a lot of sense when put that way. I guess the freelance work was just to confirm to me that what i'm doing is worth something. I know that sounds pitiful but what i mean is that i don't want to rock up to a company and think i'm excellent if my portfolio is rubbish and i thought looking for freelance would help me get better. Right now, i'm aware that i don't actually have a portfolio but it's good to have a direction xD

komaokc wrote: »

Don't expect to get any jobs if you only started 5 months ago. Doing unpaid work, I.e. working on an indie game or mod is a great way to get experience. I'm not sure why anyone would be against that, unless you mean working for free for a studio or doing freelance for free. That's a whole different story.

Thanks for your time I meant the unpaid positions that exist on the forums here at PC. They seem to be from startups and possilble profit sharing down the road.

Excuse the downight noob'iness of this next question. Would trying to make assets for DOTA2 count as a mod? I love their art style but am not really into the game too much. Is it best to try to find these mods for games that i love to play or simply love the artstyle of. Again, apologies if the question is a daft one.

GreenBeams

Meloncov wrote: »

Also, don't do unpaid work on an mmo. If they don't have the resources to pay you, they don't have the resources to make an mmo.

Yeah, that makes total sense now that i see it, thanks! =D

Joost

The main benefit of working on an indie game or mod is the experience of working in a team. Making assets by yourself is good for your portfolio because the assets will probably be of higher quality, but you don't get that experience.

I also found that having a goal (making an indie game) motivated me more to create art than just picking random projects and doing them by myself.

GreenBeams

komaokc wrote: »

The main benefit of working on an indie game or mod is the experience of working in a team. Making assets by yourself is good for your portfolio because the assets will probably be of higher quality, but you don't get that experience.

I also found that having a goal (making an indie game) motivated me more to create art than just picking random projects and doing them by myself.

Thanks again So, as a practical step from here i think i'll get more experience making assets whilst researching mods and modding. After a while of doing this, i'll try to find an indie game who's asking for help.

A plan!

Thanks for a the help and advice =D

Zack Maxwell

GreenBeams wrote: »

Comparatively, someone contacted me a while back to help make an mmo. They wanted me to start modelling on anything i could but disappeared when i wanted to see their existing models so i could match the art style.

Rule #1, stay away from anyone who says "I wanna make an MMO, can you do the art for me?" Especially if they aren't paying.
Up front.

neilberard

Only work for free if it's helping you build your portfolio, if not, then it's not helping you get paid work.

slosh

While doing unpaid work COULD be worthwhile and a good experience, I think someone in your position is more likely to get taken advantage of and get nothing out of it in the end if you do. You should be VERY careful what sort of projects you get involved in. I would much rather keep doing personal art and boosting the folio to stuff you want to do fulltime in the future. By the way, for just 5 months your stuff looks great...keep at it!

Robbie222

komaokc wrote: »

Don't expect to get any jobs if you only started 5 months ago. Doing unpaid work, I.e. working on an indie game or mod is a great way to get experience. I'm not sure why anyone would be against that, unless you mean working for free for a studio or doing freelance for free. That's a whole different story.

I've started almost 3 months ago ( 4 months ago I had no clue about ...anything related to game dev, didn't ever hear about 3ds max, Maya, Substance, Quixel, Zbrush etc... I didn't even know what a texture is)

Now I am making about 3 times more than I used to while being employed (other domains) and I am learning everyday new stuff. If you feel your work is good enough to be in a game of the current gen, DON'T do it for free, unless you would have the chance to go in a studio. It doesn't matter if it takes you 1 week to do what a pro would do in 1 day ( as long as it's not a rush job).

Also if you haven't already, get a Digital Tutors subscription and make sure you watch a course everyday, it's amazing how fast you can improve with their tuts.

I am living proof that it has nothing to do with experience, not unless there is a deadline for whatever you would be doing. As long as you can get to the same result ( or close) it doesn't matter if it takes you 5x more time.

Also you will challenge yourself harder to get better results when doing payed work, hence improve faster than you would normally do.

rzthrun

<2cents> Place a high value on yourself and your abilities. If you don't - assume no one else will. And there is a thin line being nice, agreeable, and a being a sucker. Internships or 'Work-sans-pay' are commercial transactions nonetheless - don't enter into one unless you know what you're getting out of it on the other end. </2cents>

JordanN

Zack Maxwell

Robbie222 wrote: »

I've started almost 3 months ago ( 4 months ago I had no clue about ...anything related to game dev, didn't ever hear about 3ds max, Maya, Substance, Quixel, Zbrush etc... I didn't even know what a texture is)

Now I am making about 3 times more than I used to while being employed (other domains) and I am learning everyday new stuff. If you feel your work is good enough to be in a game of the current gen, DON'T do it for free, unless you would have the chance to go in a studio. It doesn't matter if it takes you 1 week to do what a pro would do in 1 day ( as long as it's not a rush job).

Also if you haven't already, get a Digital Tutors subscription and make sure you watch a course everyday, it's amazing how fast you can improve with their tuts.

I am living proof that it has nothing to do with experience, not unless there is a deadline for whatever you would be doing. As long as you can get to the same result ( or close) it doesn't matter if it takes you 5x more time.

Also you will challenge yourself harder to get better results when doing payed work, hence improve faster than you would normally do.

Wait, so you've been getting freelance work with no deadlines, and no care about a portfolio, with only 3 months of learning, and still making enough to triple your old pay?
Mind if I ask where you find them? I'm pretty skeptical of that.
It seems unlikely someone in that situation would even make enough to get by, but even if you were previously making minimum wage that would still put your current income in the $30k range.

Robbie222

Grimwolf wrote: »

Wait, so you've been getting freelance work with no deadlines, and no care about a portfolio, with only 3 months of learning, and still making enough to triple your old pay?
Mind if I ask where you find them? I'm pretty skeptical of that.
It seems unlikely someone in that situation would even make enough to get by, but even if you were previously making minimum wage that would still put your current income in the $30k range.

You are making the wrong assumption that I live in the US. My previous pay was about 2$/hr ( yea, I know you cannot even begin to think how badly that sucks but it is what it is ....was hopefully) I guess that even 5-8$/hr seems low to most of the people around here...but for me it's something... especially for my 3 months exp.

Where? Everywhere I can find... this forum , ue4's forum , Elance and I have just started a project that should keep me working at least 8hrs/day for the next 2 months.

I have not got a single simple job without portfolio though. The first month I just learned, whole day long up to 14 hrs... 2nd month I learned more but also created a small starter's porfolio and in 3rd month I started generating income.

P.S : I cannot believe I waisted years and years of gaming, when I could of learned how to make them and be able now....with 6-10 years experience be able to get a job in studios and work for 30-50$ /hr ?

Tobbo

That is really impressive work for only 5 months worth of experience. If I were you I'd keep on working on personal stuff and learning as much as you can. You'll also find that you get much faster and efficient. Just remember to keep on challenging yourself and pushing yourself to new heights!

@Robbie222 Time may not matter as much when you are learning. But there comes a point where speed does matter. Not to say that you should do a sloppy job and rush things, but you're going to have a difficult time finding work and keeping work if it constantly takes you 4 - 5 weeks to do what most artists can do in 1 weeks worth of time at the same quality.

GreenBeams

@Grimwolf - "i wanna make an MMo, can YOU do that for me" It seems perfectly obvious now that i read it like that xD

@neilberard - Thanks for the advice

@slosh - Thanks for the advice and the kind words Personally i don't want to be taken advantage of but i do feel that beginner's need to feel like what they're doing is worth anything. Personally, i find the idea of charging for my work difficult if it's not at a standard already in the industry. I know that may make me sound like i've got a downer on myself but that's not true. i'm proud of what i've achieved in the time so far but i could definitely see how that sort of ideology of mine could get me into trouble. Guaranteed i'll be posting on here asking about rates if i ever get a freelance offer! xD

@Robie222 - Wow! Well done there I'm currently unemployed so have time to work on my stuff, but, like i said, i think i'm pretty far from matching the quality of current gen so it becomes a little difficult to pimp out my talents xD Thanks for the advice! As it is, i'm setting myself small assets to achieve in a certain amount of time and it seems to be paying off

@rzthrun & @JordanN - I think what;'s becoming clear to me is that this may be an issue if i ever get approached by anyone. Maybe i'm running crying about this too early. After all, i only got just the one offer and that seems to be bogus. Also, perhaps when if i do get approached i will feel confident in my own skills enough to charge a fair rate and also let it go if they want me for next to nothing. Thanks so much for the support in echoing the no money, no workey sentiment

@Tobbo - thank you, that's a very nice thing to say I will continue to push myself as hard as i can and submit WIP's here on PC. I'm not afraid of getting harsh crits if they help me get better )

Thanks again for all the responses and sorry that it took me a while to respond - working on a handpainted house at the minute