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TB2 beta thread

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  • EarthQuake
    Shrike wrote: »
    Do not have the beta, new features look really nice on your page

    2 things however; Now with the more and more powerful presentation of realtime assets, can you even talk about a real preview of game usage ? The normal marmoset seemed pretty borderline to me and while I personally don't give anything about that, I only look at the visuals, but there seem to be many people looking for a higher moral ground in that regard from what ive been reading

    All of the higher end features can be toggled off, and really we're not doing anything that I'm aware of that is impossible in a game engine. Image based lighting, physically accurate shading, etc is all very common place in modern game engines today, especially with next generation stuff.

    For our renders we're just sampling them out at a higher quality. You can export images without sampling, and disable the higher end effects if you want something that is more faithful to a standard game engine.

    We're always going to try pushing the envelope in regards to what is possible in a realtime renderer, its sort of our thing.
    Also, dont want to be that guy, but your interface looks not really nice and definitely an downgrade visually. I would assume it is a placeholder, but you write shiny new interface on your page, so I dont know what to think about.
    It seems to borrow visuals from the older windows and OSX at the same time, and reminds me of render packages from the 2000s to be perfectly honest

    The output images look fantastic, with realtime becoming so strong, Im not sure if I should continue with my offline workflows : )
    Thank you for your opinion. We wanted to go with a much more standardized UI, something that gets out of the way.
  • EarthQuake
    seth. wrote: »
    Playing about with the skin shader tonight, its crazy how much the lighting environments affect it....are there any plans for a whitebox style environment/default 3 point light scene so that you can get the levels just right, or is it a create it yourself kind of issue?

    We don't have any specific plans for IBL content at this time. The great thing about the new system is it is incredibly easy to load in any HDR panorama, it just works - no need to process or tweak settings in a convoluted sky editor.

    You should look into HDR Light Studio: http://www.hdrlightstudio.com/ which lets you create any sort of lighting environment you want from scratch.
    Bug: draging the colour picker circle to the top right corner of the colour display makes the hue and saturation sliders lock into place at the top of their bars till I move the circle again. I dont know if it matters but I'm using a wacom.
    Interesting, I can't seem to reproduce this with my mouse or wacom. Does this happen in the color picker no matter where you open it from or just certain materials/objects? Does it happen in every scene or just a certain scene?
    Edit* another dabble this morning, transparency in captures is a bit rough, in psd you get a lot of missed pixels in your object, in tga there is a white pixel thickness border to the object, but fewer missed pixels.
    I'll take a look at this, any chance you could post (or pm me) a zip file with psd and tga so I can see exactly what you're seeing?
    Turntable settings for both scene and camera bring the lights with them, is there an option that I am missing just to rotate the model?
    Yeah, that makes sense. One thing you can do for now is drag your light into the sky group, that way it will rotate with the sky but not the objects.

    Thanks for the feedback btw!
  • EarthQuake
    afisher wrote: »
    I've had a chance to have a little play with it and it's been fun so far.

    Some of these have probably been mentioned or are already planned for later releases:
    -Bug: Light widget disappears
    -Lights need some visual representation to show direction/radius etc like in TB1
    -Visibility toggle in scene tab for meshes, lights etc.
    -Option to Lock camera view/position
    -Option to pause turntable, rather than stop jump back to the start.
    -Scale reference and scale option (like in TB1)
    -2 sided option

    This looks awesome dude, thanks for posting and for the feedback as well!
    -Option to save/load materials would be handy too.
    You can load and save materials currently, click the little arrow next to duplicate and you'll see import and export.
    I was also getting some thin black artifacts around meshes when I was using image capture (even with high sampling). The image below is from Image to clipboard option.
    Interesting, I'll look into that.
    The skin shader is great, had lots of fun messing around with the settings and the secondary spec options are really cool as well.

    Couldn't get any good results with the transparency for the hair (hence the heavy DOF on the hair :)), probably just need to adjust my maps though. Looking forward to playing with the anisotropic and other materials and the rest of the goodies you guys have planned.
    Did you try using the dithered transparency? That should work really well for hair, it will be a bit noisy in the viewport but the exported/sampled image should look good. Let me know if you have any issues getting that to work.
  • EarthQuake
    Gav wrote: »
    Just messing around with this now, I don't want to post anything because it's just really rough tests and a lot of "what does this do...what does that do?" type of shit. If I can, I'd really like to author something from scratch rather than taking old assets and making them work to really get a feel for the new process and what not.

    On BSI, we used a similar rendering method. For our PBR we actually did have coloured diffuse, but it was practically black...very similar to how all of this is set up, just through unreal before it became "a thing." I need to really dive itno the skin stuff, Adam has had better luck with it than me it seems, but I'm sure that's a user error on my part and just not giving it enough time.

    A lot of it is just echoing what has been said, I'm finding.

    I think it's slick. I like the new format and how it resembles software that most people will be comfortable or familiar with. I like how everything is right there in the hierarchy and easy to see. The drag and drop workflow is awesome (which I think is new), how you manage assets is great and, like mentioned above, PBR is the way of the future. So many places are going in this direction...I think Toolbag2 is a great example of how powerful it can be and presented in a really clean way.

    Some gripes:

    -I naturally go to "File" to import a mesh because I'm not creating anything. (echo..echo..)

    -Naturally trying to use shift to move the skybox, I can get over it..I'm just so used to it as a basic control.

    Thanks for checking it out dude, I can't wait to see what you can do with Toolbag 2.
    -If there is a way, I didn't see it: Is it possible to just save the model and materials all together like in Toolbag 1 (Save Mesh and Materials)? Without saving the entire scene?
    No, everything is saved in one central scene file now (aside from the actual texture maps). You can import and export materials though, click the little arrow next to duplicate in the material editor and you should see import and export options.
    -I miss having representation for my lights. I seem to do more guess work and just wish there was a volume like in Toolbag 1 that showed me my lights in action.
    Yeah I'm missing that too, this is something that just hasn't gotten in yet, it is coming for sure.
    -Could we have a "new" material that is just the skin shader without enabling it through a normal material?
    Currently we do not have "materials" in the same way that TB1 did, where you swap the entire material out. We have swapable nodes for various features. So I'm not sure we could add a new material that is just the skin shader under the current system.

    Is your issue that the material UI is super huge with everything expanded when using the skin shader?

    I'm not sure if this will help, but you can actually create your own preset material. Try this:

    Set up a material with some good values (clear the textures from it), and then export it into toolbag root(program files\marmoset toolbag 2 probably)\data\mat\

    Close TB and open it back up, your new material preset will show up in the dropdown material list.
    -I wish things stayed selected from the hierarchy when navigating in the viewport. I feel like, I want to move around but still have a light selected to tweak while I navigate around. It seemed that way in Toolbag 1, but I would need to open it up to be sure.
    Yep, this bugs me too, noted!
  • EarthQuake
    Hello.
    A little, I tried to test.
    very cool new features,
    I favorite Local reflection&New DOF!
    By the way, I can't find the detailmap and chromatic aberration.
    Function of it is my favorite in TB1.

    Thank you&sorry my bad english.

    Great to see you here Ishikawa!

    Looks awesome!

    Detail map and chromatic aberration have not been added back in yet, I'll put them both on my list here.

    Thanks, and don't worry about your English, its much better than my Japanese!
  • cw
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    cw polycounter lvl 17
    Hey EQ is there any rough eta for public beta? I'm getting more and more excited with all these great feedbacks and examples! :)
  • Lonewolf
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    Lonewolf polycounter lvl 18
    btw
    is it possible to hide objects?
  • EarthQuake
    cw wrote: »
    Hey EQ is there any rough eta for public beta? I'm getting more and more excited with all these great feedbacks and examples! :)

    Hey, sorry, no ETA yet.
    Lonewolf wrote: »
    btw
    is it possible to hide objects?

    Not yet but this is on the todo list.
  • afisher
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    afisher polycounter lvl 6
    I was also getting some missing pixel artifacts that Seth mentioned when trying to capture an image.
    EarthQuake wrote:
    You can load and save materials currently, click the little arrow next to duplicate and you'll see import and export.
    Yeah I noticed just after I posted, not sure how I missed that :)
    EarthQuake wrote:
    Did you try using the dithered transparency? That should work really well for hair, it will be a bit noisy in the viewport but the exported/sampled image should look good. Let me know if you have any issues getting that to work.
    Yeah I did, but I want to adjust my maps and I'll give it another shot.
    artquest wrote:
    Would you mind posting your textures used on the skin? I'm curious how many maps you used and what your settings are in TB2. It looks really nice :) I'm planning on doing a skin test soon in TB2 and I'm wondering how close to other workflows the TB2 skin shader is.

    Sure. Just keep in mind that some of the settings are off because I'm using textures that haven't been adjusted to better suit TB2. For example, my spec and gloss maps are unchanged and I had to check the invert gloss and set my spec and gloss settings different to how I would have it in TB1, rather than adjust my textures to fit the material better.

    The changes I did make were to the diffuse map. I made the skin slightly desaturated and for the subdermis map I made the skin more saturated with more of a red tone. For the Peach fuzz I just used a B/W skin mask map and for the translucency map I just used a quick B/W mask around the nose and cheeks. Hope that helps.

    I'd be interested to see some other peoples material settings as well.

    rzh9.jpg
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    for future reference, healthy skin (ie: not sweaty/greasy/dry etc) has a reflectivity of around 0.028. so clamp your specular values to that in photoshop!
  • kurt_hectic
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    kurt_hectic polycounter lvl 10
    Sorry, but I don't have time to check what was changed; if my info. is outdated than sorry ;\

    2 key features that could makes this soft interesting for me:


    1)Have to supports materials ID

    2)It could be a game changer if this soft could export created shaders....in some kind of code? Or other way.
    I just want to have possibility to import shaders with settings to the udk\unity\others engines and simply use it in the game.

    For now, for me the idea of creating so huge soft only for beauty readers is weak and I don't buy it.
  • leslievdb
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    leslievdb polycounter lvl 15
    for future reference, healthy skin (ie: not sweaty/greasy/dry etc) has a reflectivity of around 0.028. so clamp your specular values to that in photoshop!

    Is there a place somewhere where people can share/find these material properties?

    Also from the looks of it its really great that theres a proper materialeditor in marmoset 2
  • Farfarer
    for future reference, healthy skin (ie: not sweaty/greasy/dry etc) has a reflectivity of around 0.028. so clamp your specular values to that in photoshop!
    Worth noting that I think that's for linear space (which Marmoset uses) in gamma space it's about 0.19 I think.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    2)It could be a game changer if this soft could export created shaders....in some kind of code? Or other way.
    I just want to have possibility to import shaders with settings to the udk\unity\others engines and simply use it in the game.


    If you use skyshop in unity, you can get things looking extremely similar with very little effort. there are some advanced features from toolbag that don't transfer over though, but that's down to unity limitations.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    Farfarer wrote: »
    Worth noting that I think that's for linear space (which Marmoset uses) in gamma space it's about 0.19 I think.

    good point!
  • melviso
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    melviso polycounter lvl 10
    Can I know what graphics card u guys are using?I intend buying a laptop and I understand Nvidia graphics card for laptops are the Quadro cards.Would the Nividia Quadro k5000 series be okay?

    I intend to get marmoset soon and I want to get the best out of it.So for a laptop what Nvidia quadro card would be best?

    Btw,what's the difference between GTX and Quadro cards?
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    Quadro cards are nvidias professional range. everything else is "consumer grade". the difference will come in driver support, and more often than not application support. for example, autodesk only officially support quadro cards.
  • Jerc
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    Jerc interpolator
    Quadro will likely bring you nothing but trouble. Try finding a laptop with a 700M Series (760M to 780M), it will give you better performance for a cheaper price.
  • EarthQuake
    melviso wrote: »
    Can I know what graphics card u guys are using?I intend buying a laptop and I understand Nvidia graphics card for laptops are the Quadro cards.Would the Nividia Quadro k5000 series be okay?

    I intend to get marmoset soon and I want to get the best out of it.So for a laptop what Nvidia quadro card would be best?

    Btw,what's the difference between GTX and Quadro cards?

    A Quadro card is not recommend for Marmoset Toolbag (or game engines of any sort really).

    If you can find a laptop with something like a Nvidia 765m or better that would be very good, a 740m or 750m will be ok but the more advanced features like screen space reflections will be pretty slow.
  • AlexCatMasterSupreme
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    AlexCatMasterSupreme interpolator
    I have two quadro 4000s at work with two 8 core 2650's and 64 gigs of ram. In realtime applications a fucking cell phone outperforms them. Hell they suck for 3d too. Granted it is an older architecture but a fucking 5770 would run any game engine better (or max or maya. They are a joke. (and that's the same gen as the 460 which the 4000 is based of)
    My computer at home with half the specs and a nice video card gets about 10 times the FPS of TWO quadros.

    Just a warning.
  • Lextripper
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    Lextripper polycounter lvl 7
    Not beta testing so i dont know if these requests are available or not

    - the possibility to use matcaps with a opacity slider to fake certain materials

    - Use detail maps with normal,roughness and reflectance map

    - being able to use more then one detail map on one material through a RGB mask.
    This method limits you to only 3 detail maps so maybe you could also put in the
    option to use a grayscale mask and having the ability to add unlimited amount of
    detail maps.
    This feature also goes without saying that you should have the control to adjust
    the tiling for every detail map individually.

    i really cant stress these detail map options enough because I think this technique will be very common in next gen graphics because of its performance, workflow and visual benefits.

    Outside of that i am really impressed with what i have seen so far.
    Big up to 8monkey labs and the online feedback support
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    Actual camera presets would be nice. Things like Nikon, Canon, Sony etc.
    OS map support too please.
  • scotthomer
    Sigh, would've loved to have been able to get in on this! Hurry up and release it so I can play :D
  • Drew++
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    Drew++ polycounter lvl 14
    Testing some high poly meshes in Toolbag 2. This one is about 3.5 Million triangles :)
    tele_tb2.jpg

    And some awesome Greentooth bokeh! :D
    tele_tb2_lolbokeh.jpg
  • EarthQuake
    scotthomer wrote: »
    Sigh, would've loved to have been able to get in on this! Hurry up and release it so I can play :D

    Get Pedro to show you it :poly124:

    Drew, looking awesome!
  • artquest
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    artquest polycounter lvl 13
    I've been meaning to ask, what is the gloss range in TB2.0? The slider I see is 0-1 but how many actual levels of "spec exponent" are there? Is it 0-2048? Just curious as to what I'm actually mapping to when I create a gloss map for TB2.
  • DInusty
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    DInusty polycounter lvl 17
    if were building a scene do we have the ability to drop a probe in the center and get an HDR image we can make from the scene itself? that would be really nice...
  • NegevPro
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    NegevPro polycounter lvl 4
    I don't own Marmoset Toolbag but now I'll definitely grab Toolbag 2 when it comes out, looks incredible at the moment.

    Considering my limited knowledge of the topic, I suppose it would be useful if one could create basic primitive shapes within toolbag to test textures and whatnot on. It saves some time as you wouldn't have to export one from your 3D package. (Not even sure if this is already possible, sorry for my limited n00b knowledge haha.)
  • Jerc
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    Jerc interpolator
    Another bad boy using substances:

    B6Jq8EP.png
    Kegrnzk.png
    UjyVmXZ.png
  • melviso
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    melviso polycounter lvl 10
    Thanks for the clarification guys.

    I have seen this guy's work on yt using marmoset
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arNmhMAC37M&list=TL8-j2Nc_Ukug14ZFiVb7UNdENBW64r3TZ"]Gollum - Marmoset Toolbag Realtime Render - YouTube[/ame]

    Does anyone know what graphics card he uses.I will possibly be purchasing the one he uses or close to,just wondering if the one he uses comes with a laptop.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    melviso... it's important to understand here, this guys graphics card has almost nothing to do with how good his work looks.
  • JohnnyRaptor
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    JohnnyRaptor polycounter lvl 15
    so whats the deal with toolbag2 then? going the ways of keyshot ?
  • Xoliul
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    Xoliul polycounter lvl 14
    Do you get access to the TB2 beta if you buy TB1?
    And is Substance integrated in some way?
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    melviso wrote: »
    Thanks for the clarification guys.

    I have seen this guy's work on yt using marmoset
    Gollum - Marmoset Toolbag Realtime Render - YouTube

    Does anyone know what graphics card he uses.I will possibly be purchasing the one he uses or close to,just wondering if the one he uses comes with a laptop.

    Well since that video is 9 months old, had to of been at best a 600 series card and there are better ones out now. The most powerful card then was the 680 GTX. (I'm only looking at Nvidia cards because AMD cards tend to have more issues in professional 3d applications (even someone in this thread mentioned issues they had with AMD and Toolbag 1)). A 770 GTX out performs that card. The best graphics card you can get in a laptop is a 780M or 770M, and a laptop like that is going to cost $1,800-$2,000. You can build a pc yourself with an equally powerful GPU for $1,200. Also you do not need the best graphics card on the planet to run a scene in Marmoset well, even my old 9800GT performs well in Toolbag 1. Of course I'd suggest getting a DX11 card with at least 2 gigs of vram.
  • GetAwesome
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    GetAwesome polycounter lvl 14
    Jerc wrote: »
    Another bad boy using substances:

    Awesome work, thanks for posting these! Much better than our in-house Substance tests :poly124:
    NegevPro wrote: »
    I suppose it would be useful if one could create basic primitive shapes within toolbag to test textures and whatnot on...

    There will no modeling tools or primitive creation tools in Tb2, but we will certainly release with some sample meshes included to showcase material presets and allow for quick testing of new materials.
    Xoliul wrote: »
    Do you get access to the TB2 beta if you buy TB1?
    And is Substance integrated in some way?

    No, Tb1 licensees aren't automatically granted access to the beta. We're in a private beta with a limited group for the time being, but are still considering a public beta prior to the official release.

    Tb2 does have the Substance SDK integrated, so you will be able to create materials using Substances in Tb2 - and modify their parameters at runtime - but will still require Substance Designer to create your Substances.
  • radiancef0rge
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    radiancef0rge ngon master
    Heres an update on my test scene
    OldHouse_11.jpg
  • EarthQuake
    Heres an update on my test scene
    OldHouse_11.jpg

    Cool! Looking good. Do you have any more thoughts now that you've worked with it a bit more?
  • Stromberg90
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    Stromberg90 polycounter lvl 11
    Would like to get a answer on if it's planned to support cameras or maybe even lights from fbx files.
    One other suggestion would be the ability to duplicate lights.

    A little screenshot from me, today's little test in tb2.
    6jSQUVO.jpg
  • Wolvawab
    Tb2 does have the Substance SDK integrated, so you will be able to create materials using Substances in Tb2 - and modify their parameters at runtime - but will still require Substance Designer to create your Substances.
    Awesome! Cannot wait to try this.
  • ysalex
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    ysalex interpolator
    Would like to get a answer on if it's planned to support cameras or maybe even lights from fbx files.
    One other suggestion would be the ability to duplicate lights.

    A little screenshot from me, today's little test in tb2.
    6jSQUVO.jpg

    Wow all this stuff is looking amazing, but Stromberg I'm really liking your environment. Is TB2 doing that Bokeh in realtime, or is that something else?

    Also, is that shading pattern on the wall from the AO?
  • Stromberg90
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    Stromberg90 polycounter lvl 11
    ysalex: Thanks, hoping to do something more serious in TB2 in not to long :)
    The Bokeh is realtime from TB2, you also got a bunch of Bokeh shapes to choose from.

    The pattern on the wall is from the realtime reflections, which to my knowledge can't reflect what you can't see, so that's why it get's broken up.
  • Luke003
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    Luke003 polycounter lvl 8
    3D mouse support would be awesome. :)

    It always takes me a second to remember that it doesn't work when I'm switching back and forth between programs.
  • radiancef0rge
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    radiancef0rge ngon master
    EarthQuake wrote: »
    Cool! Looking good. Do you have any more thoughts now that you've worked with it a bit more?

    Hey EQ - I sent some suggestions in to Mark a few days ago. Some biggest things for me would be
    - An undo feature
    - Material instances referencing .tbmats
    - Blend support
    - Per poly support for material assigning
    - Possibly a aperture/exposure setting for the camera, could be cool for some changes to night HDRI

    From a workflow perspective I think there are a few hickups, first for me is the material instance but mark said you were considering it. Second is reimporting of an fbx. I know Maya sucks at reassigning mat ids randomly, but having it update from an fbx file would be super great.

    The ability to load another .mesh file into the scene as a "proxy" would be super great for set dressing. Set up a mesh inside another scene and have the ability to import that uneditable into the scene would make set dressing super quick. Update the .mesh scene and it auto updates in the scene where it is referenced. Is that doable?

    Thanks EQ <3
  • ishi_kawa_cg
  • leslievdb
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    leslievdb polycounter lvl 15
    ooooooooooooh yeaaaaaah , nice to see you posting here yosuke
    loving the look of your davy jones head
  • Fred2303
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    Fred2303 polycounter lvl 7
    Holycrap!!
    hello
    little test shot
    davy.jpg
    boba.jpg
    bd.jpg
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    hello
    little test shot
    davy.jpg
    boba.jpg
    bd.jpg

    Hajimemashite watashiwa Lee desu yoroshiku onegaishimasu!

    and so ends my terrible Japanese. Welcome! your work is a true inspiration.
  • EarthQuake
    artquest wrote: »
    I've been meaning to ask, what is the gloss range in TB2.0? The slider I see is 0-1 but how many actual levels of "spec exponent" are there? Is it 0-2048? Just curious as to what I'm actually mapping to when I create a gloss map for TB2.

    0 equals 4, and 1 equals infinity, and the mapping is not linear, its mapped so that 0.5 looks roughly halfway between 4 and infinity.

    If you want to know the math: horizontal is gloss value, vertical is blinn-phong exponent
  • EarthQuake
    Frozan wrote: »
    if were building a scene do we have the ability to drop a probe in the center and get an HDR image we can make from the scene itself? that would be really nice...

    This is not currently a feature but IBL probe-baking is a certainly a good idea.
    Would like to get a answer on if it's planned to support cameras or maybe even lights from fbx files.
    One other suggestion would be the ability to duplicate lights.

    Importing more information from FBX files, including cameras, lights and materials is something we will look into at some point in the future.
    A little screenshot from me, today's little test in tb2.

    Looking great!
  • Kosai106
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    Kosai106 polycounter lvl 13
    I had a chance to have a look at TB2 when I visited Disting, and wow is all I can say!

    Not going to lie here; This will be an instant-buy upon release.
1246717
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