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First Female character WIP

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Hey Polycount users,

At the beginning of 2013 I posted a general topic asking for advice on character modeling processes as I wanted this year to make a big push with progress. The feedback was more then I ever could ask for and I am grateful for the knowledge that was given. I come now posting this topic in more advice I what I've been attempting and working on. The last month or so has been hectic, but I've finally got away and now have more open time to practice. This is the current torso + head of my WIP. Any advice or critiques you have so that I may correct what is wrong currently with the mesh, and avoid troubles going forward would be amazing, and you would have my eternal gratitude.

torsoWIP1_zpsf7ab8302.jpg

Replies

  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 12
    Interesting approaching. :)
    I usually do box-modeling xD
  • thepapercut
    @amile duan: Thanks! I'll have some more progress to post tomorrow!
    @Pyrzern: Yea I use to do everything with the box modeling approach, but over time I've grown attached to edging out forms then filling the empty space in. I really like your characters you have on you DA page.
  • Gav
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    Gav quad damage
    Definitely a solid start - waiting to see more for a better critique :)

    This is pretty much the same workflow I use with edge extrusion, essentially marking the more extreme points and filling in the blanks. The one area that stands out to me as "odd" at least from what we can see here is the loop on this character's traps. I'm not sure that this will have the result when smoothing and deforming that you would expect - you may be better off just letting those edges flow around the neck and down the the arm (rathe rthan making them a sectioned off group - just continuing the edges around the neck and then crossed with an edge loop going from the neck down the arm, basically outlining how the traps would flow.) Another point that may cause you some issues is how you are terminating the clavicles - having a pole there may cause some weird pinching
  • The_Blenderer
    Good Start, topology seems great so far.
    Proportions are mostly good except maybe:
    1)the length of the ear is ~the length from the bottom of the brow to the bottom of the nose in most humans.
    2)I'm not sure on where you are going with this but breasts sit differently if held by a bra or not so more reference and understanding of the shape as squishy instead of suspended solid might benefit you. :P

    In the end it depends on what details you are going to show, no point in doing back study if you are going to cover it in fur etc. (because I can't see what the character's back looks like)
  • thepapercut
    @Gav - Thank you for the critiques and advice Gav. I'll definitely incorporate the needed fixes to the areas you pointed out for tomorrow. I'm just not sure though what specific loop on the traps your referring to at the moment.

    @The_Blenderer - Thanks man. I didn't even notice the ear problem till you mentioned it and I looked at it, but it's definitely a needed fix. The breast i'm doing suspended, as this being a first character model I'm not doing any clothes. As for the back, you can't see it cause I didn't make it till today.

    Most recent version (I did originally have the ribcage in, but it looked terrible, so only it's outline is shown.)
    torsoWIP2_zps4733d5c1.jpg
  • Gav
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    Gav quad damage
    Actually, looking at it closer, it probably won't be an issue - but I'd clean up the clavicle edge flow :)

    In this shot, I'm sure you're going to fix it up but the topology on the back is a little messy - I I'd try to have clean edges running around the torso for better deformation, right now that long group of polygons in the center of the back is going to cause problems.

    For the head/face - it looks like you're straying into anime territory...? Though that's fine, I think it would be a better exercise to go for something realistic first as an anatomy study and then take the lessons learn there by applying it to a more stylized model. There's a bunch of anatomical issues going on there - which may not even be worth pointing out due to the stylization (sharp mouth, the nose is too wide, big eyes, big ears, etc.) The topology and actually modelling skills are coming along but, yeah, I'd really focus on a reference first and try to get that right...or at least obtain a reference shot that you're going for so that we have something to critique against.

    Cheers!
  • thepapercut
    @Gav - Thanks for the continued advice! I'm working on the back and chavicle at the moment while continuing the rest of the body. Your right about the face, it's my weakpoint, and the sheet I was working off of is stylized more then realistic. I'm collecting some faces right now and gonna rebuild a more realistic face. Will update tomorrow with new stuff and the facial photos I'm gonna be using.
  • thepapercut
    Posting a small update with a large one coming in the next day or so. Been sick these last few days and it sucks cause It's been limiting my time. Completed the ribcage, and the stomach (even thought the stomach is not fully complete in this one) along with minor fixes and tweaks that have already been mentioned. Been focusing on getting the head down now.

    Feedback, comments, and critiques please!
    torsoWIP3_zps42aacbe3.jpg
  • thepapercut
    Finally got a second to jump on and post an update.
    Any and all critiques are welcome!
    torsoWIP4_zps6d968c26.jpg
  • thepapercut
    Finally got back on the it after a end of semester haitus. Will be hopefully finishing up this week or early next. As always please leave all the crits, comments and advice you can give!
    female1wipmay282013_zpsfdf13a81.jpg
  • thepapercut
    Update (6.17.13) Was hoping to get this done weeks ago, but issues arose. Looking to have it's entirety blocked out by the weekend. As always: Feedback and critiques from the amazing artists here would be great!
    Second note: Also if anyone could point me in the direction of a good head modeling video, please share, the tutorial I've been working this model from doesn't have the greatest head modeling section.
    femalewip5_zps5de5e324.jpg
  • Meteora
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    Meteora polycounter lvl 8
    Looks pretty good, better than what I can manage.

    I notice a odd pole right below the knee caps. I'm not very familiar with body topology to make a solid comment, but I don't think that pole should exist. Forearms obviously still a work in progress, it needs some more edge loops to make things evenly distributed.
  • jmiles
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    jmiles interpolator
    Hey man. These are looking pretty good so far. Here's my crit:

    In my honest opinion, I think you're killing yourself with all this extra topology. You're definitely headed in the right direction, but I believe you can build your topology better and more simplistic.

    Here are some reference images that will help you out a bit. I still have to look back at these from time to time, sometimes, because they're so fundamentally good. These images are from a fellow from Zbrush Central: Rimasson. They're really old now, but he shows great understanding of topology flow and anatomy.

    http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?22541-Female-Body-Wip-(Nudity)

    shb3.jpg
    yy6q.jpg
    yag3.jpg
    dcfc.jpg
    drim.jpg

    Also, I studied this tutorial a ton when I was starting out modeling figures: the Joan of Arc Tutorial from Michel Rogers. Also very old, but shows a great in depth step-by-step demonstration of building even topology flow of a female figure. I hope this helps you. Cheers!

    http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/joanmenu.php
  • thepapercut
    @meteora - Thanks the comments and critiques. It's definitely has issues, and it will hopefully continue to look better as it comes to completion.

    @jmiles - Thanks for the imagery, links, and comments! I definitely did shoot myself in the foot with using a tutorial that had heavy of poly density. I plan to start another model as soon as this one is finished for more practice, and it will go after less polys for sure.
  • KristaW
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    KristaW polycounter lvl 9
    I like to make base meshes that same way :) One thing that I noticed with your topology is the amount of vertical edges concentrated in the middle of the belly. Those are going to make some weird deformation if you ever twist your character's spine in animation. I would think about spacing those out.
    Also the topology right above the knee looks a little probalamatic...I would consider moving some of the poles to places where the form would naturally stick out or in (not a smooth area like the thigh) The same thing goes for a lot of poles that I am seeing. I would try to tuck them away in less scene areas or places where you want a dimple or a lump.
    Not much else to say except to keep going
  • thepapercut
    KristaW wrote: »
    I like to make base meshes that same way :) One thing that I noticed with your topology is the amount of vertical edges concentrated in the middle of the belly. Those are going to make some weird deformation if you ever twist your character's spine in animation. I would think about spacing those out.
    Also the topology right above the knee looks a little probalamatic...I would consider moving some of the poles to places where the form would naturally stick out or in (not a smooth area like the thigh) The same thing goes for a lot of poles that I am seeing. I would try to tuck them away in less scene areas or places where you want a dimple or a lump.
    Not much else to say except to keep going

    Thanks for the critiques and comments!
  • thepapercut
    Been fiddling around with hands for days and nothing looks right..ugh, they are the bane of my existence, next to heads. If anyone can point me in the direction of a full proof hand tutorial I'd be greatly. (I did look at the Joan of arc, and will try that later but in case that fails a back up is always nice.)
    handWIPhelpneeded_zpsd8c49e77.jpg
  • PyrZern
  • thepapercut
    PyrZern wrote: »
    Thanks pyrzern, I've been looking over the tutorial for the last couple of days. This is the latest result, freaking thumb area keeps knocking me out, I'm already starting over on another one. I just thought I'd post this for progress and get feedback that I may not be seeing.
    handswip1_zps5b19c0cd.jpg
  • stitchshift
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    stitchshift polycounter lvl 6
    Papercut, the key to modelling a character is even topology. Try to keep all of the quads evenly spaced. Its good practice especially for subdividing should you want to create normal maps and what not later on.

    The female character posted by jmiles above is a perfect example. See how the quads are evenly spaced apart. If you have too many edge loops then it can create "pinching" in the geometry which can look 20 times worse when you subdivide.

    Keep everything simple and if you see edge loops that are too close then move the verts or the entire edge line so it is even. It doesn't have to be perfect especially since this is your first. Just keep it in mind for the future :)

    To be honest what you are achieving here is much better then my first attempt was lol!
  • thepapercut
    Papercut, the key to modelling a character is even topology. Try to keep all of the quads evenly spaced. Its good practice especially for subdividing should you want to create normal maps and what not later on.

    The female character posted by jmiles above is a perfect example. See how the quads are evenly spaced apart. If you have too many edge loops then it can create "pinching" in the geometry which can look 20 times worse when you subdivide.

    Keep everything simple and if you see edge loops that are too close then move the verts or the entire edge line so it is even. It doesn't have to be perfect especially since this is your first. Just keep it in mind for the future :)

    To be honest what you are achieving here is much better then my first attempt was lol!

    Thanks Stitchshift for the advice and help!
    I redid a good chunk of the body today, following the great comments and advice given.
  • thepapercut
    Got some more done, wanted to be farther along but I'm slowly combing the model to make sure to not make the topology crazy while maintaining shape. All feedback would be greatly appreciated.
    female-body-new-2_zpsc7642bb2.jpg
  • thepapercut
    Redid basically the entire design again, aiming for more simple structure and less polycount. So if I could get your guys thoughts on how the topology/poly placement is would be fantastic!

    female-body-new-3_zpsb98218e6.jpgAlso their has been a question I've been in the middle of the fence on, is this edge needed? I mean I know it's a great way to shape out the fold of the butt but I've ran into this conundrum as you can see via the picture, and am now wondering if it's worth keeping.
    isthisedgeneeded_zpsf78008a9.jpg
  • thepapercut
    8.1.13: Did some topology aligning and changes in structure. Shooting for feet done with hands tomorrow and head by the weekend. If I could get some critiques some critiques on this latest version, I would be eternally grateful.
    female-body-new-4_zps397ffb72.jpg
  • tac0m
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    tac0m polycounter lvl 6
    hey man, not bad. Glad to see you redid a lot of stuff. it shows willingness to learn. Normally i block out the character and get the landmarks (elbows, knees, wrists) placed first. Then start figuring out the topology flow. You really just have to find what you are comfortable with and that just takes trial and error. Back when i was teaching myself this I made quite a few of these using different methods.

    Edit: I critiqued an earlier image you posted. The thigh's need to be fixed. I don't think you should have your topology come down and the wrap around as well.

    Edit: Ahhh, okay i see what you were trying to do. Following a previous image someone posted from before.
  • Xavier777787
    I see you're using Max to create this character? I agree with tac0m in that blocking out the character first helps. If you know how to use the free form and graphite modeling tools in max, topology is a breeze.

    You can simply create your blocked out version, and then create the topology you want over that. If you need to change things around, you don't have to start from square one because you still have the basic form of the blocked out model to go by.

    anyway, butt loop depends on what you're gonna do later on. If it's a game rez character, you could probably do without. If it's something more, then leave it in, but you should make the loop go all the way around the upper thigh.
  • silkroadgame
    Your progress is very clean for us,and details of mdeling are good.
  • kanga
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    kanga quad damage
    You are learning a lot about edgeflow and it looks pretty good. What will help you more is doing loads of sketches in a sculpting app that lets you forget about polys and forces you to concentrate on volumes and anatomy.

    Keep it coming.
  • thepapercut
    Thanks to everyone who made a post so far! Wish I could of posted earlier but I had a circuit board issue with my computer literally a day after I made the last up date and wasn't fully back up and running since earlier this week.
    Here is the latest WIP (feet are completely blocked in, except I have a nasty 5 polygon on the foots bottom I'm trying to figure out how to get rid of it.)
    8_23_13wip1_zps197d9b8b.jpg
    Location of the annoying 5 polygon:
    footproblemwip_zpsddab05ba.jpg

    @xXavier777787: never tried the graphite modeling in max, I'll have to take a look at it now since it seems like it could aid me quite a bit. Also I hate to ask but when you say loop around the upper thigh, where at?
    @kanga: Any recommendations for the sculpting app? I have Zbrush sitting on the desktop, but have yet to open it, and I here the menu/UI is a bit of a bitch to learn.

    Once again thank you to everyone who made a post!
  • AtticusMars
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    AtticusMars greentooth
    except I have a nasty 5 polygon on the foots bottom I'm trying to figure out how to get rid of it.
    Use a triangle
  • MarsLaTours
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    MarsLaTours polycounter lvl 9
    As usual, this community is providing some good advices. I swear one day, we'll have to pay to come here. I'm gonna make a female character too. Thanks to the OP (and good luck) and thanks to all of you.
  • thepapercut
    Thanks atticusmars and Marslatours!
    I'll post an updated photo tomorrow when I have more of the head and hands complete.
  • thepapercut
    Worked on the hands today. I'll have to build another one tomorrow as the results today were quite bad. I'll post the best one as an update (it was not finished in any way), and if anyone has any tips or advice please do post and let me know what I'm obviously over looking.
    handwip2-fail2_zps1ce4f8d9.jpg
  • thepapercut
    9.22.13:
    Wish I wasn't this silent but another semester has started, and I also am in the process of moving. So I worked on this head, looking to get some critiques on what to improve on, roughing in the lips have also been a pain.
    female-face-wip-92213_zps381e5d20.jpg
  • Leinad
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    Leinad polycounter lvl 11
    My first character was a female model that I completely modeled in maya. The one main thing I learned from it is how much faster it is to sculpt in zbrush first and then simply retopologize it.

    One suggestion, if you're just using this as a base mesh to sculpt on then you should keep the topology much more simple than you already have it. I personally think it's just inefficient to have a complex modeled base mesh for human characters especially when you have tools like zremesher in zbrush that can give you a decent starting point to start sculpting on before you retopologize.
  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 12
    Hello again :) You seem to be popping back and forth thru time here :P
    Doesn't seem like you plan to ZBrush this piece after, though. So, here, rough starting point for polygonal mouth modeling. If you're lucky, it will look quite alright. If not, it might look a little duck-face :P

    http://www.secondpicture.com/tutorials/3d/3d_modeling_a_mouth_in_3ds_max.html
    polygon_in_3d_modeling_of_a_mouth.png
    modeling_mouth_with_polygons_in_3d_studio_max.pngsymmetry_modifier_effect_in_3ds_max.pngquad_polygons_in_mouth.png3d_modeling_mouth_with_polygons_in_3ds_max.png
  • thepapercut
    Leinad wrote: »
    My first character was a female model that I completely modeled in maya. The one main thing I learned from it is how much faster it is to sculpt in zbrush first and then simply retopologize it.

    One suggestion, if you're just using this as a base mesh to sculpt on then you should keep the topology much more simple than you already have it. I personally think it's just inefficient to have a complex modeled base mesh for human characters especially when you have tools like zremesher in zbrush that can give you a decent starting point to start sculpting on before you retopologize.

    Thanks Leinad for the comment and insight! I'm in the process of learning Zbrush (watching videos to understand where everything is and such).

    @PyrZern:
    Yea I've been trying as much as possible to stay active, but it's quite a busy time for me right now. I was thinking of maybe messing around with this model a bit in Zbrush just to see how it all works out, but it'd be nothing major. Thanks for the pictures and references of mouth modeling, definitely seems like a good methodology.
  • thepapercut
    10.6.13:
    Head is mostly done, except the left over open areas, some critiques on problematic areas would be great!
    fenaleface10_6_13_zps2d33c277.jpg
  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 12
    Your current head topology doesn't exactly reflect anatomy and muscle. Like... her jawline, or lack thereof.

    Try this one if you feel up to it :)
    5f0f3434908f4ae41498766b6b3f88c2.jpg
    c5ce2b7335c3b840e45f0b33344bb727.jpg
  • thepapercut
    PyrZern wrote: »
    Your current head topology doesn't exactly reflect anatomy and muscle. Like... her jawline, or lack thereof.

    Try this one if you feel up to it :)
    5f0f3434908f4ae41498766b6b3f88c2.jpg
    c5ce2b7335c3b840e45f0b33344bb727.jpg

    Wow the difference in structure is really evident when viewing your examples compared to mine. Definitely going to make changes over the next few days and see what works best. Many thanks!
  • thepapercut
    10.12.13: Finally broke away from school/work and got some time in on max again, re did part of the head. Critiques and comments please!
    fenaleface10_11_13_zps229ac415.jpg
  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 12
    Definitely better !
    If you are willing, remake it a few times :) Each time by looking only at the examples, not at your own previous work.
  • thepapercut
    PyrZern wrote: »
    Definitely better !
    If you are willing, remake it a few times :) Each time by looking only at the examples, not at your own previous work.
    Thanks Pyrzern!
    10.19.13: Did another face practice. Can definitely see a difference.
    female-face-wip-101913_zpsb0fc5489.jpg
    Comments, critiques and advice would be much appreciated from everyone!
  • thepapercut
    10.24.13: fixed up the last face a bit, also added on the rest of the head this time. Comments, critiques on the face, shape of the head, to many polygons, etc.. would be much appreciated!
    fenaleface10_24_13_zps52d50b77.jpg
  • thepapercut
    11.16.13: Finally got some more time off to work on the head a bit more earlier this evening. Hoping to wrap up the entire form by months end. Please leave any comments, critiques or advice you have!
    fenaleface11_16_13_zpsfc0b356c.jpg
  • thepapercut
    11.29.13: I got some ear problems, the flow into the ear is killing me on how to deal with it. So any help or advice you guys can lend would be great!
    earwip112913_zps6fe5dc3f.jpg
  • Haribol33
    I'm not sure on where you are going with this but breasts sit differently if held by a bra or not so more reference and understanding of the shape as squishy instead of suspended solid might benefit you. :P
  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 12
    Hmm, I do have this for you :)
    http://www.pinterest.com/pin/472033604665384404/


    There were a few more, but now I have too many stuff on my pinterest, I can't find what I am looking for anymore.
  • jeremiah_bigley
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    jeremiah_bigley polycounter lvl 12
    This makes me miss the days of poly pulling. Good practice for a great foundation in 3d. Keep up the solid work!
  • thepapercut
    Thanks to everyone for the comments and advice!
    @haribol33: I've recently taken notice to this issue, thank you though for pointing it out!
    @pyrzern: Thanks man for the tutorial! It was a big help for my remodel of the ear I worked on yesterday.
    @jeremiah_bigley: Thanks man for the comment!

    12.6.13: Ear redone, but it's quite a few more polys then the hole on the side of the head.
    earwip12613_zpsf51740a5.jpg
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