Unwanted Criticism
polycounter
Hey there,
You're looking fucking gooood! Damn. New shampoo? What's your secret?! ... anyways
I'm looking for heated critique threads where the original poster did not take well to criticism. Maybe they were just overly sensitive or defensive to feedback or whatever. My hope being that these types of conversations can help me get a better understanding of the best way to behave within the critiquing process. Any other articles or links you think might be interesting are welcome.
Thanks!
You're looking fucking gooood! Damn. New shampoo? What's your secret?! ... anyways
I'm looking for heated critique threads where the original poster did not take well to criticism. Maybe they were just overly sensitive or defensive to feedback or whatever. My hope being that these types of conversations can help me get a better understanding of the best way to behave within the critiquing process. Any other articles or links you think might be interesting are welcome.
Thanks!
Replies
ANnnnnnd GO: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=117636
I see. OH I SEE HOW IT IS!
THIS IS BULLSHIT! SO I'M THE BAD GUY HERE!?
More seriously, I don't think what KillnPC is asking for is necessarily 'gossipy' thing or a bad thing to think about...especially if we're talking about old threads, long locked or with people who have long left PC.
I could see having good examples and bad examples of how to take crits as being helpful to people... It's easy to say 'this is how you should NOT take feedback' its another to show an example of a thread gone to hell. Likewise, I think it's worth elevating those who truly take crits well--particularly if the work isn't all that great at first and there's ample evidence of the attitude being a factor in the improvement of the artist. Some of the long running Conceptart.org sketchbooks had some great examples of this, but no names come to mind atm.
It might be more productive if you sandwiched your negativity hamburger with positivity bread.
Like, maybe say,
"Thanks for the question! But this kinda seems gossipy, why would one do that? Good luck in your search!"
And,
"I think you're a great break-dancer but, this thread is a TERRIBLE idea! I really like your avatar."
Or,
"I want to be your friend in real life. Seems like a pretty shitty idea. You're a great person who makes the world a better place."
Have a great night!
There was also some other guy that was "so bad at taking crits/learning" at one point that a Admin made a thread in the main section (using his real name as well) To call him out to "help him improve"
was kinda of a bad ordeal of gossip and nonsense on both ends. I think ultimately both threads where deleted, but if you talk to one of the staff members im sure they might have a copy of it floating around.
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=94724
If this is you then I know this is crazy but.... I wan't to be your friend, we can share screens, we can help each other learn 3d.....for free.
If thats not you then.......... then ...I'm sad.
I'm sure you'll find something.
So, first off, no, I'm not a hot chick.
Second, this thread is totally uncalled for. I honestly was looking for those threads but didn't really consider how this might effect those people's careers! Totally not cool. Sucks for me, I'll just have to manually search them out.
Don't be an attention whore like me! Don't ruin your peer's potential careers!
edit: shit, joopson beat me to it
edit2: Oh man that Metal Impact thread is comedy gold, I completely forgot about that.
Mod hat: The concept of this thread is actually a very, very good idea. Pooling resources for dealing with criticism, both giving and receiving is a great topic that I really support, so lets try to move on here with that in mind.
The best and sometimes hardest thing to do when receiving or getting critiques or feedback is to remove all emotion from it. Something that I find really helps me to do is break down each point and make a simple list, which I can check off one by one as I do it.
It really helps me think objectively about something like change requests when I get a big pile of them that I may not necessarily agree with or feel great about. When I break it down into little chunks to knock off I can usually make the changes really quickly, and generally by the time I've actually done the changes I see the merit in them, even if its easy to initially take criticism/change requests personally.
When I'm giving feedback I like to do the same thing, break it down with a simple list and wherever possible make suggestions on how to improve each point, not just C. "This area sux, fix it".
I wanted to say that, while no examples come to mind (that I could possibly find), I know I've seen instances where the artist was actually asking for critique, but the critique they received was terrible; either very mean, way off base, or completely unhelpful. We have a few long-standing members here who still haven't learned how to give good critique, and that's no good!
If you're going to research into this topic, then you should also pay attention to the type of critique that people are giving too. Just my two cents.
Back to UDK documentation....
I noticed something about critique I've received. It really is a compliment when people spend their time typing out something long about your work. It means it is showing enough promise that they care about it, in some small way, and they're willing to spend their time typing to you about how to make it better.
But I've noticed that I'm at a point where I get a lot of critique, with very few compliments. And while I understand it is a compliment to receive critique at all, it is still a bit discouraging to see only things that should be fixed, instead of also things that are good.
And I think that's probably the case with everybody; everyone likes to hear good things about their work, in addition to the critique. And that certainly helps with how it is received and dealt with by the artist.
Of course, at its base, it just means I'm not good enough yet. And I try to remove my ego from that, but it's tough, certainly. Sometimes it's easier than other times. When I was younger, it would really deeply wound me to hear something negative about my work; even though I knew, in all good conscience, the issues mentioned.
So I try not to judge people based on how they receive critique, unless they are complete and total dicks about it. Because most of us have been there at one point or another.
-Fellowbots and the treat that PC will be done for under the army of mushroom men cause no one liked my artwork.
-Anubis vs. Mimes and the lovely Orient from the other dimension is my shield.
-The Alpha and Omega GoW Angel of of the Universe that would make even He-Man blush is my shield.
-Jumping from software to software in the rendering Pipeline because wasting time learning a render engine is stupid and it's the software that counts is bliss.
-Animation is expensive, and the resources created by veterans are stupid, Pixar can suck a big fat cock, now teach me and don't comment about it.
-Valve is stupid for allowing nice thumbnails and nice models in the workshop, and not mine, I know my stuff!
-Normal Blended shaders aren't good enough for Skin shader, and Reflections don't exist, but Specular's do in real-life, I know my browns.
-Please close my account that I publicly mentioned because no one liked my art and want some human attention on my art as pity.
-Most of your model have tits in it, you're stupid, you should be making wholesome art and mountains, REPENT! YOU DON'T NEED NO ANATOMY! GOD CREATED TIT'S IN OUR MOUNTAINS!
-I'm a 13 year old girl who is a boy in Vietnam, and lost both legs to a shark tiger who ate my parents on my birthday, art helps me free my soul, so I'm trying to do my best with my artwork, please don't say anything mean or else I will cut myself while stitching shoes for orphans, Kawai-Desu!
Hmmm...yep, I think that's about it. I'm not going to give out any links to the threads in question, but anyone who has seen quite a few posts on PC will know what I'm talking about, continue looking at your own peril now
Even kratos feared all those triangles, i remember i read the entire 3 page's of notes in his thread, dear lord that was funny shit ;')
maybe I'm seeing through greentooth glasses, but I'm sure on the waaaaaay back train ( I’m talkin... 2 polycount revisions ago(am I on crack?) or maybe just 1? I’m talking 2003/2004??) Critiques used to be raw and brutal here. Enough to send children screaming and crying. If you couldn’t handle it, you couldn’t. It was that simple.
I'm sure I remember a few people even getting run out of town because they couldn’t handle the crits.
I actually miss that!
Nowadays it seems like it’s all about not hurting anyone’s feelings, being politically correct, not being racist(amongst friends),and just candy coating absolutely everything to the point of coddling. And for me that’s a real ‘turn off’ environment to learn in.
I came here originally because dudes like b1ll would tell me I sucked, followed by a paintover showing me how to paint like a beast. Now you rarely (if ever) get people doing that because somewhere along the line recipients started getting hung up on the 'you suck' part and can’t move beyond that, when that banter was only there because that’s just how things rolled. That for me at least, was the charm of what made polycount, polycount.
Maybe this is 100% in my mind - either way it’s definitely how it feels.
I'm so cautious with giving critique it’s never how I actually want to deliver it because I’m too conscious of crushing some poor persons soul -and it takes a ton of time to articulate thoughts and be nice, when its much faster to just say ' shit sucks, here’s a paintover bro ' I mean were all friends here right ?
I have to go to my own circle of friends and grovel to b1ll because I know he’s not afraid to tell me I still suck his balls like a bitch and will forever.
TLDR: Rugged and raw man, cut the bullshit on the crits. Throwdown with the brutality and mix it in with some penises, vaginas, boobs and general nastiness, all filthy and shitty like. - then as the recipient you're free to analyze and break it down however you see fit - determine if anything’s in line with your vision and move forward, or ignore.
edit:
now i know, usually i don't recieve any cirtuique at all because my 3d work has become so mediocre, that nobody appears to bother, and i only post something like once a year or something
One day, you'll present a piece of art. And some day after that, a critic will tell you it's a piece of shit, right to your face.
When that day comes, how are you going to react?
They may say it in the nicest way possible and that sure would be nice of them. They might not have the patience and tell you their opinion coldly and direct. They may be so repulsed they want to harm you if they can and discourage you.
The viewer is the other half of the experience.
I think a part of being a professional and better artist in general is learning how to take tough criticism. Being able to harden yourself to view problems objectively. It would allow you to learn from all feedback, and not just the feedback we select.
But, the tougher you get, you also need to learn how to be soft to others. It's all in the name of progress and finding a working solution.
Penis confetti.
on topic: i get really tired of the EPIC ART THREADS!!!11 that pop up in p&p every now and then. its like 4 pages of "i came."-type of comments with not as much as a single conctructive criticism. the crysis art-threads comes to mind. i mean sure if people like what they see they should say so, but it doesnt take that long to add just a couple of sentences on how to improve.
its almost like there is this fear of criticizing those that are to good. i mean in all other media, people do this. i can easily tell people that i dont like picasso or that the oscars went to the wrong movie, eventough i wouldnt in a millions years be able to do that kind of work.
but here it feels that there is this unspoken counter argument to every criticism; "then do better yourself neewb!"
uhhh maybe i went wildly off topic now, but whatever...
Just look at some of the threads on here, where people start out with something that looks good, but isn't quite there, and they follow the crits, and implement them, the end result is an infinitely more polished project.
I know of a thread currently on PC though, but it feels too mean-spirited to link to it. I don't know, I say give them a chance to change their ways before they're publicly crucified.
Seems a little silly, what possible positive information do you hope to glean from this? How do you plan to educate people with this data? That might help people understand your plan a little more.
I personally don't think there's any reason to say "This piece sucks, etc." How does it help? Its better to put it across in a constructive way so the artist's confidence isn't knocked, e.g. "Proportions could use some work, here's a paintover" or "Those details don't look like cloth, more like melted chocolate, you need to study the forms more" They're probably putting a lot of time and effort into their work, so its worth keeping that in mind.
Accept it and move on, it isn`t something you havn`t said about yourself anyway at that point. I think a good artist always thinks his work needs improvement and is probably way worse a critic of him/herself than anyone else could be.
If you can`t handle a certain critique then it means it hit home somewhere. Aside from that useless critique and personal opinion is usually easily identifiable.
on a serious note, i think its important to differentiate between personal oppinion and actual constructive criticism. Often people give well written feedback but its unclear if its just what they like/dislike/prefer or if its, say, an actual anatomical error in the model.
actually man that's my thought too.
i remember when i first started modding (making skins o/) and found polycount, and said to some of my fellow modders "hey i wanna post my stuff there". and they ALL said, rather unanimously... "don't do it, they'll eat you alive!"
and they weren't lying! i got ripped a new one, pretty fast. but you know what? i'm glad it happened and i'm glad i stuck it out.
Honestly... who doesn't like getting 5 pages of "awesome!" comments when they worked really hard on something? When you get lots of those comments you know you are doing something that is generally well received and that you are on the right track. Just IMO.
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at first it might be hard to get a rough critique and it might take a little time until it sinks in, but just a harsh "this is shit" without any substance behind is something i ignore completely
Haha, this was how polycount was pitched to me in 2008 - but I found it to be more like 'Brutal critique wrapped in friendly encouragement'.
I don't think the raw critiques have declined, but I have noticed much more 'soft' critiques as the community has grown. And there's been several phases of growth where the brutal critique style wouldn't have really been appropriate (TF2 Modelling noob influx).
Ultimately I think it's not a terrible thing, but we must be ever vigilant for threads where the reply's are a page of:
Nice.
Sweet work!
I came!
etc...
Nice post dude, I came....
Particulary for new artists, it's very easy to be discouraged into the point of just giving up.
I guess just listen, don't take feedback personally, and just learn from what people say. 8 times out of 10, that feedback will make you a stronger artist. That is just my opinion tho.
Now a days i look of peoples work and not comment.... i tend to write more in here or on the tech thread. But when people ask me for my feedback i always try to give some constructive crits if any.
And as to what Hazardous said about "This sucks" followed by awesome paintover. I think many people would listen if that happened, but by and large now-a-days(not that i was there back then) the "harsh" criticism is just "This sucks" followed by "cause i said so." This is most likely because the people who can really give those awesome crits/paintovers, are probably super busy.
Having said all that it IS still totally possible to gleam information from people just as good or "worse" than you, in most cases it involves a little back and forth, and reading between the lines
Yeah, but you really want someone to say WHY they like it, and what they DONT like and how it could be improved. Same as with the "It looks like shit", "It looks great" comments is kinda useless, because there is no context, it could be applied to anything, maybe he just liked the trashcan or something.
If you just want backpatting, deviantArt would be the place for it, imo.
Well, the whole machismo "shit sux" thing, I think a lot of that is simply that polycount as a whole has grown up a lot. With more people getting industry jobs and the whole industry in general maturing, you see that reflected here, the end result being a bit more of a work appropriate environment. The games industry is small, and the last thing you really want to be known as is some jackass who talks shit constantly on the internet. So as professionals we've got to be aware of the "PR" we're putting out there.
I remember the same stuff you remember, but I can't say I really look back on it as the good old days like you do, its simply different today, not really hugely better or worse. I think polycount is more accessible to new users these days, which I would count as a good thing.
My 23 year old self from 5 years ago and my 18 year old self from 10 years ago especially think that I am a huge wanker for writing this post. But honestly, the sort of effort I put into what I post these days is a lot more rewarding.
But I wanted to comment on something else you mentioned. For me, I like to see/give detailed critiques that outline specific points instead of the general "this sucks" "this 'looks off'". However, you don't actually need to do a huge writeup to do that, I think a paintover is often just as much effort if not more than a detailed writeup, especially if its coming from someone that knows what they are doing(ie: you, lol). So yeah, even if you think dropping a quick paintover isn't much effort, IMO its actually one of the most helpful and meaningful things you can do.
In a lot of ways when I give feedback/advice/etc I sort of think of it as building a library of knowledge. If you put in the effort to give really good feedback to someone, its not only going to help that person at that one moment of time, its something a lot of other people are going to catch on to, and its something you can point back to again in the future when similar situations pop up.
I don't know how many people know about the website satellitesoda.com (it's mostly a 2D art site) but when me and a couple people created it and one of the main rules way you HAVE to crit on each thread that would you comment on. You also have to give feedback and not just use the forum as a personal gallery to slut your art work. Some people would post and never comment on anyone's work or even their own thread. Your crits would have to be constructive as well other wise the people who ignorantly say "the arm is super stupid" would get talked to.
I love crits so hard and it's one of the best learning tools for your art but also for working with people. Crits never have to be mean or forced, especially when it's subjective. Nothing worst than art bullies trying to derail someones passion for a particular style.
What also sucks is when I ask for crits and I get nothing : [
here are some of the rules from the forum!
Knowledge Of Basic Art Fundamentals Required
The goal of the SatelliteSoda forums is to help out those who, for whatever reason, seriously want to improve their artistic abilities and become the best that they can be. Having knowledge of the basic art fundamentals helps us help you. Having this knowledge puts everyone on the same level making critiques and explantions much easier.
Should you not already have some knowledge of the basic art fundamentals, for example colour and/or anatomy, that's ok, we cannot hold your hand, but we will help as much as possible. In the end its up to you to take the initiative to learn the basics for yourself.
Constructive Comment/Critique Encouraged
Try to be as constructive as possible when leaving a response to the art of other on these forums. Comments in the vein of "Those colours suck!" or "That chick looks like a guy!", no matter how humourous they occasionally may be, are not criticism nor constructive and do not help the artist in question. Comments such as "That is really cool" and "OMG!!!" fall into the same area. A single emoticon is also not a constructive comment, no matter how cool said emoticon may be. Try and keep those type of comments to a minimum, as it gives an artist nothing to work with.
Try to give reasons and explanations to why you like or dislike a certain element in a piece, as it goes along way. Be specific also, most threads contain multiple images, so please make sure the artist is aware which piece you are commenting on.
Try To Give And Take Criticism
If you have come here to show off you work without giving any input on anyone elses work, then youll be shunned. If you would like help on your work or people to look and comment on your work, that's fine, but Im sure other people would like your input on their work too.
Please try to give and recieve criticism in a professional manner and with an open mind. When you post art here at SatelliteSoda, it goes without saying that you are seeking comments and criticism. If you are after comments and critcism on a certain area of a piece, make sure you get that across when you first post the piece.
Criticism is a means to help you improve your artistic technique and/or the formal elements of a piece of art and in no way is a critique a personal attack.
A critique is an examination of the formal elements of a piece of art, line, color, form, composition etc. A critique is not about passing judgement or what is wrong with a piece. Pointing out each and every thing you consider to be a flaw in a piece of art is not a good critique. Going over a piece with a fine tooth comb for ridiculous amounts of time nit picking it too bits and expecting the artist to go back and fix all the "problems" is not a good critique either.
A critique is a balanced examination of the formal elements in a piece, expressing both good and bad, what you feel works, and what doesnt. Try to address the elements you think were carried out well in addition to the ones you feel could maybe use some work.
Leave your personal tastes behind. If you dont care for a particular genre or style, let it be, it's not needed to give a good critique. If you think your personal preference is a valid critism then explain why.
If you have the right attitude, an understanding of the basic art fundametals, the drive to improve your work and a sense of humour you will have no problems at all. These things are very important at SatelliteSoda and important to the SatelliteSoda Crew.
To the thin skinned artists who prefer their critiques watered down with 3 parts smoke, 2 parts wind and 1 part ass, I say:
"Its your ball Cinderella..."
Make the most of it or don't bother getting dressed up.
As far as harsh critique or brutally honest critique goes I value it a great deal, it cuts to the chase and highlights what's actually wrong, but unfortunately it doesn't always seem to crop up all that often or all that early. Perhaps it'd be a good idea to isolate critique that's extremely harsh to one thread; the rip my art a new one thread or something. That way only people who feel brave enough to take those sort of comments would receive them, maybe. The more I think of it the more I think there wouldn't be much point but who knows.
Most of the posts here have touched on my thoughts on critique, I don't think I saw anyone say that criticism is a bad, or at least always a bad thing.
And as far as being on topic goes, I think Ace-Angel got most of them.
it was THAT long ago.