Polycount Comment/Critique Graph

polycounter lvl 6
Offline / Send Message
Macattackk polycounter lvl 6
Hey Polycount, so Ive seen that comments and critiques are sometimes unevenly clumped on this forum so I made a graph to show how I feel they are distributed among threads. This is mostly for the Pimping & Preview section. I know this type of thing has possibly been made before but I decided to make my own take on it and see what people thought.

This is kind of a half joke so don't take it too seriously. I hope this will help people reflect on where they choose to C&C vs not C&C. Maybe people have insight into this?

This is not meant to bring Polycount down or anything, Im just trying to make it better.

7pqWk.jpg

Replies

  • respawnrt
    Offline / Send Message
    respawnrt polycounter lvl 5
    I don't get what are you plotting there, should be some axes and some measures ... jkjk
  • Jason Young
    Offline / Send Message
    Jason Young polycounter lvl 8
    Your graph needs lots of work.
  • Macattackk
    Offline / Send Message
    Macattackk polycounter lvl 6
    maybe the nooby part is too high idk. this isnt meant to be super accurate, like I said its kind of a joke but a joke for self reflection.
  • joeriv
  • Macattackk
    Offline / Send Message
    Macattackk polycounter lvl 6
    yea I have seen something similar to this before possibly but decided to make my own because I couldnt find it and thought Id put my personal take. but this is the kind of stuff I want to hear from people. I personally use polycount as my teacher but of course people dont owe anyone anything, its a free forum. ive just personally seen threads that could totally use C&C but they sink out of sight and then that person gets C&C too late and has to do everything over. Its not anyones fault, its a group effort. im just saying people should reflect on how much they pay attention to certain threads. ill edit out the frustration part cause people might take it the wrong way haha. im not actually that frustated.

    and yea polycount is the most amazing thing for game art ever. im not trying to bring it down at all im just trying to make it better.
  • Pancakes
    I was going to try to say something "clever" but instead I'll just say this is absolutely right. The more help I need in a model, the less critiques I get. But if I'm a bit lucky and I get a little more right than I got wrong in a model I will get more help with it.

    It's like, the more help you need, the less input you get after a certain point. But also, as I said, if I luck out and get something right in my model, then I will get a few comments, which is nice, but usually the comments don't really help me figure anything out even if the poster's heart is in the right place.

    I mean, I guess you can't really expect to get in depth help from people who aren't really all that invested in you. But it is really interesting when you can tell your friends IRL that so-and-so from such-and-such game dev company said something about a model you were working on. So that's something special right derr

    But when I see someone who needs help with the fundamentals I try not to say anything either because I don't feel qualified to try to tell them stuff. I think for the blind to try to lead the blind is a bastardization of the concept of what a forum is supposed to be about. So maybe some other people feel the same

    But if I had the skills I'd like to think that once a week I'd come to polycount and just tell all the noobs exactly how to fix their models and they would all love me and in exchange for my awesome tips I would force them all to say that they loved me in all their signatures.
  • Skillmister
  • Zwebbie
    I don't know who's upload this is, but this is the old one:

    edit: curse you, Skill!

    I think the original is a bit more accurate in that it accentuates how it's the people that need replies the most get the fewest of it. That bottom end of the curve is just that point where you're comfortable with art, but stuck in the mistakes you keep making over and over.

    That said, that low point in the curve might be where you find the most useful criticism as well. The high replies for starters are all for naught, because they should just get to work practicing, even unguided art will help a lot. And the inspirational end rarely gets any meaningful replies, that's just people who try to outdo each other in saying how much they like the result in the dumbest way they can.
  • Macattackk
    Offline / Send Message
    Macattackk polycounter lvl 6
    Pancakes wrote: »
    I was going to try to say something "clever" but instead I'll just say this is absolutely right. The more help I need in a model, the less critiques I get. But if I'm a bit lucky and I get a little more right than I got wrong in a model I will get more help with it.

    It's like, the more help you need, the less input you get after a certain point. But also, as I said, if I luck out and get something right in my model, then I will get a few comments, which is nice, but usually the comments don't really help me figure anything out even if the poster's heart is in the right place.

    Right this is kinda what I was getting at.
    But when I see someone who needs help with the fundamentals I try not to say anything either because I don't feel qualified to try to tell them stuff. I think for the blind to try to lead the blind is a bastardization of the concept of what a forum is supposed to be about. So maybe some other people feel the same

    I think this is the attitude Im against. People should just go for it and tell people the fundamentals when its needed. Thats what I wouldve wanted when I was starting out, though I didnt start out on Polycount and kind of glad I came here when I was more skilled. Allowed me to get more out of it. I guess Polycount is meant for more skilled artists in general so this kind of thing is pointless to bring up idk.


    Thats the graph I was thinking of when I made this but tried to make mine more detailed and yea more jokey than that. But i guess this point has been made enough so maybe this thread can just drop down if its not going to help. I mean yea that pretty much sums it up.

    In the end, what prompted me to make this thread is I find myself frequently searching the next couple pages in P&P finding threads with basically no replies and a lot that could be said and then I say something to float it to the top and that person really appreciates that someone actually said something and Im hoping more people will try and do this kind of thing.
  • Jeff Parrott
    Offline / Send Message
    Jeff Parrott polycounter lvl 13
    I think this is most internet forums honestly. Regardless of the field. But yeah this happens.
  • Justin Meisse
    Offline / Send Message
    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 13
    If you actually listen to critiques and apply it to your work, you will get a lot of replies. If you have an excuse for every critique people will eventually abandon your thread.

    There are also times when it's just a case of an adequately modeled yet boring subject. Don't make a generic sci-fi hallway if you're looking for a lot of critiques.
  • ZacD
    Offline / Send Message
    ZacD greentooth
    Part of the issue is just how work in progress threads work.
    -New people are doing stuff wrong right off the bat
    -Average people are almost everything right and don't get much critiques until the end
    -Awesome people are showing great potential in a project at the start, and it gets people excited.

    Then there's new people that are doing too much wrong its hard to explain everything.
  • Skillmister
    If you actually listen to critiques and apply it to your work, you will get a lot of replies. If you have an excuse for every critique people will eventually abandon your thread.

    But the point is those people who have an excuse for everything still end up getting more critiques than the average joe. It happens time and time again that the most idiotic threads become 'epic' front page 400 reply threads with 100 people all ganging up on a super defensive OP until they finally either learn to accept critiques or go thermonuclear and request to be banned.

    But critiques can't be listened to if you never get any in the first place.
  • Justin Meisse
    Offline / Send Message
    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 13
    Here's a golden oldie, one of my first attempts at an environment piece - link
    the images are gone but you'll notice I took the critique and at times, even scrapped all of my work and started over. When you're learning sometimes you have to stop trying to polish a turd.

    Macattackk: You've gotten a good amount of valid critiques on your mountain range scene but you've come back with excuses. Just because you don't like the critiques does not invalidate them.
  • Ace-Angel
    Offline / Send Message
    Ace-Angel polycounter lvl 6
    There's an attrition issue most of the time, I have seen plenty of 'average Joe' artists create a certain character or environment piece that was going for a unique stylized look and suddenly, you have a bunch of peeps coming in and throwing out a few 'ideas' on how improve the piece (EI: Make him/her more like Master-Chief, this reminds me of Mass Effect alot, you should ape the design more, it looks alot like the TF2 heavy, add a chain-gun to it and voila, fanwork!).

    While in some ways, these 'helps' get the ball rolling, but some of us don't want to go out of our way in changing the the entire thing off the bat, so we say stuff like "Thanks, but I don't think that's the direction I personally want to move in", this especially comes to a head boiling point when more then a few people try and push the idea all over you.

    Once those comments start piling up, people will see a bunch of 'no' posts and assume that the artist doesn't want to improve, so they stop helping. Which snow-balls badly.

    I just wish that people would understand there is large difference between telling you to add 'slick shoulder pads with lights on your character' vs. 'you should look up the Spartan armor from Halo', or 'Hey, that river looks deep, tone it down abit' vs. 'The mountain top is too pointy, and not green enough'.
  • Skillmister
    Here's a golden oldie, one of my first attempts at an environment piece - link
    the images are gone but you'll notice I took the critique and at times, even scrapped all of my work and started over. When you're learning sometimes you have to stop trying to polish a turd.

    You got plenty of critique in that thread so all is well and good.

    Check this out. 31 posts, half are mine. Most of the other posts are the same 1 or 2 people. Not quite zero replies but i feel it could have been a lot better had i had more critique, especially with it being my first proper full environment.

    I just felt i got to a stage where i needed a fresh pair of eyes to pick out things that would help sell the piece, and i just didn't get any so it stagnated.
  • stickadtroja
    Offline / Send Message
    stickadtroja polycounter lvl 6
    The whole defending against critism is so amazingly stupid. Like when somebody, doesnt have to be a noob, put something up and gets critics and answer something like "yes but this is only a WIP", "i havent started with that part yet" or worst of all "im going for a different style".

    Theres is almost never a reason for defending against critics. No one FORCES you to make the changes suggested so why not just smile and say thanks? I mean if you dont agree then just don't change anything...?

    The defensive attitude probably comes from a mindset that people don't understand the art your posting. BUT ITS ART! if we dont understand YOU have failed! There shouldnt need for an explianation. At least not in a gameart forum. Are you going to post your defensive excuses as a txt attached to all the pictures in your portfolio?


    Anyways, to get on topic about the reply graph, its a sad fact, but i still think polycount is one of the best out there, I mean there is the fair share of OMG!! I CUMMED!!!- replies but there is also a good portion of the forum members that give good, well thought out critique. Its what makes this place good. So please Polycount, never stop being yourself!


    Another offtopic, one of the things that I value super high on this site, is the LACK of rated topics. I think that stuff that they have on other forums, where they rate threads with stars and such, just contribute to an elitist attitude. Polycount has a much more humble mindset and thats what makes this place so great!

    EDIT Now this looks kinda lika a response to ace-angel... ITs not! i wrote this before i saw that post. just so i dont come of as some douche.
  • Justin Meisse
    Offline / Send Message
    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 13
    you did well enough, the basic subject doesn't really get me excited - it's a reinterpretation of a reinterpretation - I would have liked to see the sunny Eagleland from Earthbound.
  • Macattackk
    Offline / Send Message
    Macattackk polycounter lvl 6
    Macattackk: You've gotten a good amount of valid critiques on your mountain range scene but you've come back with excuses. Just because you don't like the critiques does not invalidate them.

    I did, I am in no way complaining about the criticism I got. In fact I love what people said, it shows me what people expect in general and changed my brain on the matter. But in my case I went with what Ace-Angel said and did a: "Thanks, but I don't think that's the direction I personally want to move in"

    This wasnt me blowing off criticism. I was just saying Thank you but here are the reasons why Im not going to go that route. A lot of it had to do with gameplay purposes so it gets even weirder in my case.
    The whole defending against critism is so amazingly stupid. Like when somebody, doesnt have to be a noob, put something up and gets critics and answer something like "yes but this is only a WIP", "i havent started with that part yet" or worst of all "im going for a different style".

    Theres is almost never a reason for defending against critics. No one FORCES you to make the changes suggested so why not just smile and say thanks? I mean if you dont agree then just don't change anything...?

    The defensive attitude probably comes from a mindset that people don't understand the art your posting. BUT ITS ART! if we dont understand YOU have failed! There shouldnt need for an explianation. At least not in a gameart forum. Are you going to post your defensive excuses as a txt attached to all the pictures in your portfolio?

    I personally disagree with this. Theres nothing wrong with defending against criticism. There is however a problem if someone gives you criticism and you say "Hey fuck you! Im the best dont tell me that Im doing stuff wrong or inaccurately." Heres a tweet by Alexander Bruce, maker of Antichamber, that I think is fantastic.

    H8xcT.jpg

    just because someone defends against criticism doesnt mean we should stop. And Im not complaining about my thread in this case. Im totally happy with what happened in my thread. Im just saying in general, critique should be a discussion not "Take it or else".
  • stickadtroja
    Offline / Send Message
    stickadtroja polycounter lvl 6
    well i guess i have to disagree. i dont really see what there is to discuss. I mean, there sure is technical things to talk about, best way of doing things and such, and you can talk about the mood you are trying to convey and so forth. BUT there is no room for being defensive. If i look at your art and think "Thats not good" you have failed. Simple as that. Now AFTER that part there is room for discussion. Like you can say " I want to make this in a different style, how do i do that?". I mean the only discussion should be about WHY you did fail, not IF. Because with art, the observer is the judge.

    what im saying is there is two types of repsonses:

    A. "Your critic is invalid, becuase i have a different style"

    B. "Your critic is valid, and i want to make this in a different style. How do i do that?"

    A is defensive because its hides beneath the question about style.

    B is the proper way, because it admits that the critic is valid, and that the style question is another matter that don't conflict with the validness of the critique.


    I mean there is some cases when you make art , where its only a question about style. I could for example be making some kind of cowboy character, and someone writes " Hey! I hate cowboys!". This, of course, is impossible for me use as valuable critique. But this happens rarely. And its often obvius when it is the case.
  • Joseph Silverman
    Offline / Send Message
    Joseph Silverman polycounter lvl 11
    Dude, if you're beyond 'super nooby' and you KNOW how to get better, but you're not good enough for any advanced shit, there's not a whole lot that can be said to you. I mean, a pat on the arm and 'keep it up, son' is awesome, but what the hell kind of input do you need? You've heard it all before if youve reached 'average joe' level, just grind smart until you kick ass and post specific technical questions in the appropriate forums.
  • Pancakes
    I don't like to rate myself, but I suppose I qualify as the average joe presently. In so far as what kind of critiques I want from a forum:

    I once asked whether or not a head I was sculpting looked feminine and I got about 20 comments just by asking that one question. I got some interesting opinions as well. But in the end I got next to zero technical insight to my question.

    Eventually I sort of figured out what I was seeing and I can sort of answer my own question to my own modest satisfaction. However, at the time I had hoped for someone to maybe draw a few lines on the picture I posted and to say, "The proportions here make her look sort of masculine, you can make it rounder, or scale it differently and see a difference there"

    That's the critique I was hoping for. Instead I got people saying, "She's fine keep going" "Don't change her". That's nice to hear, but I was still clueless as to why they thought she was fine and why I thought she was masculine. Sort of had to figure it out on my own.

    I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that I think there are valid critiques that can be applied to an average joe's post that could potentially give him/her some insight.

    Ultimately, I start to post less, not that I post all that much in the first place. But you really start to realize that a forum isn't the right place for an average joe to get critiques.
  • dii
    No but seriously JMYoung is right about this graph, the axes don't illustrate anything. Someone needs to study their anatomy.
    I once asked whether or not a head I was sculpting looked feminine and I got about 20 comments just by asking that one question. I got some interesting opinions as well. But in the end I got next to zero technical insight to my question.
    Yeah you did, I remember that thread because I was going to reply but everything you needed to know about that was covered in the first few posts: Soften the features.

    You had a simple problem that got a simple answer, just because you didn't get an elaborate paintover with a detailed outline of the structure of the human head and the subtle differences in the facial/cranial proportions and the slope of the forehead between genders doesn't mean you didn't get useful technical feedback.
  • Ashaman73
    A quick and easy way to rate someone works would be nice (+1 if you think that the artist is doing a good job and is going into the right direction, without the need to write some comments or provide a paint-over).

    The worst feedback is none feedback at all, and the average joe who does some good work, but doesn't get feedback due to not making many misstakes and not making something incredible, feels ... lets say cheated.

    In this situation you don't know, if you have done everything wrong (everyone is just hoping that the thread dies quite fast) or if the work is good, but not good enough to C&C.
  • Saman
    Offline / Send Message
    Saman polycounter lvl 7
    Those graphs are NOT accurate. They show how the situation is for some people but not all of them. There are many other factors that affect the amount of posts you get, popularity for example. If you're a popular guy on the forum(for making good art) you can make average-level art but still receive lots of comments because people are interested in you. If you however are some unknown guy, people don't really care unless you do some incredible stuff or if you're being difficult/weird and people rush in to to make fun of you. Many times it isn't about the quality of work either, sometimes it's about your art being interesting or not, which is one of the hardest things imo. Cool warhammer tanks are more popular than crying clowns etc.
    I don't like how those graphs bunch people together just because they don't receive a lot of feedback etc. I've seen some things posted here that haven't gotten many replies but they've hardly needed "a lot of work", far from it tbh!

    As for not being able to take critique well; Even if constructive feedback is a two-way discussion some people take your defense as a sign of not wanting to listen to you so they just give up right away. After all, what's the point of them trying to help you for free if you don't want it? I always try to not defend my stuff unless it's something that is being misunderstood.
  • Macattackk
    Offline / Send Message
    Macattackk polycounter lvl 6
    Saman wrote: »
    Those graphs are NOT accurate. They show how the situation is for some people but not all of them. There are many other factors that affect the amount of posts you get, popularity for example. If you're a popular guy on the forum(for making good art) you can make average-level art but still receive lots of comments because people are interested in you. If you however are some unknown guy, people don't really care unless you do some incredible stuff or if you're being difficult/weird and people rush in to to make fun of you. Many times it isn't about the quality of work either, sometimes it's about your art being interesting or not, which is one of the hardest things imo. Cool warhammer tanks are more popular than crying clowns etc.
    I don't like how those graphs bunch people together just because they don't receive a lot of feedback etc. I've seen some things posted here that haven't gotten many replies but they've hardly needed "a lot of work", far from it tbh!

    As for not being able to take critique well; Even if constructive feedback is a two-way discussion some people take your defense as a sign of not wanting to listen to you so they just give up right away. After all, what's the point of them trying to help you for free if you don't want it? I always try to not defend my stuff unless it's something that is being misunderstood.

    Im just trying to make a graph for a high proportion of the threads and most dramatic situations I see. This isnt meant to reflect everything its just weird that there are plenty that are like this.

    Usually if you make good art youre going to continue making good art so thats why its popular. its just theyre probably making something smaller and quicker than they usually do.

    I put the warhammer vs crying clown part in where it says "this is too weird to critique"

    heres the thread that made me want to post this. it was a thread that could have totally had critiques on it but it was on page 2 and didnt seem like it was going to get any: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105568

    this doesnt happen toooo much but it still happens plenty
Sign In or Register to comment.