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Maya or Max for Environmental Modeling

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Dashiva
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Dashiva triangle
Sorry if this is in the wrong forum, it's my first post so I kind of struggled to know where to put it. Feel free to move it where ever is best. Anyway, I've got yet another take on the Max vs. Maya question that's been beaten into the ground. I haven't found an exact answer to this question anywhere so I thought I'd post.

Here's my dilemma: I'm trying to learn game environment modeling, and strictly game environment modeling, but I'm unsure of which tool to choose. I'm pretty old to be starting this, so I need to go about it in the most efficient way to avoid any common pitfalls. I started with the basics of Blender for a bit but after reading on Polycount it became clear that I should devote my time to a more established package if I wanted a job. I began by downloading Max and trying to do a basic beginning UV a crate kind of exercise from a book, which didn't work for one reason or another (it was probably material selection differences between 2011 and 2012). Anyhow, this lead me to go ahead and download Maya which I had a better time with. I'm up to creating simple geometry now and I generally like the workflow as it seems to be a lot like Blender.

However, during this period I also started reading Polycount more, which has been illuminating on multiple fronts. One of the things I've noticed is that while people generally answer "either Max or Maya, pick one" when asked the question, most of the people answering "Maya" are character artists and not environmental artists. This split also seems to be born out when you look at (good) tutorials. Most of the "make a game environment" tutorials seem to be Max based while the character tutorials seem to be Maya based. I also find that the Max game environment books are better than the Maya one (it seems that there's only one).

My end goal is to be able to model old things rather than modern ones, so I'll be using Mudbox along with Maya or Max. I'd like to end up doing the kind of stuff you'd see in a Tomb Raider series (I'm an archaeologist by trade, so I've got a history thing going on). My question then, is if I should just move back to Max as it seems to be more in use in environment modeling, or can I keep going in Maya and expect similar results? I figured It would be better to ask people who have an in depth knowledge of the applications before I dump more time into Maya. I'd like to avoid a scenario where I am not as competitive in game environment modeling because I chose the wrong tool.

Replies

  • glottis8
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    glottis8 polycounter lvl 9
    I feel max has a better handling of polygons, and the modifiers work wonders. I can work on both max and maya tho. I'll expand on why it handles better in a little while i guess.
  • DEElekgolo
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    DEElekgolo interpolator
    Oh boy here we go
  • roosterMAP
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    roosterMAP polycounter lvl 12
    Tbh, it really doesn't matter which you use. In the end, its just a package. Employers will higher people and tell them to use a different application and expect the same quality of work.
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    Just use both, if you'll probably end up using both in the industry after a while anyway.
  • Dashiva
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    Dashiva triangle
    Ok, let's rephrase it then. Is it easier to learn environmental modeling in Max? My goal is to be somewhat platform agnostic at some point, but I'm talking about getting to the point where I'm proficient at these sorts of tasks and know a pipeline fairly well. I'm not looking to start a flamewar, I don't have a preference either way, but I can't learn both at once.
  • LMP
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    LMP polycounter lvl 13
    Dashiva wrote: »
    Ok, let's rephrase it then. Is it easier to learn environmental modeling in Max? My goal is to be somewhat platform agnostic at some point, but I'm talking about getting to the point where I'm proficient at these sorts of tasks and know a pipeline fairly well. I'm not looking to start a flamewar, I don't have a preference either way, but I can't learn both at once.

    The ease of learning environment modelling has nothing to do with the program you use. The program is only a tool. I started learning with Maya, learned Max a few years later but now I use Max at work.
  • Will Faucher
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    Will Faucher polycounter lvl 12
    Neither is necessarily easier to learn, really. They each have their own way of doing things. Most people I know started out with max, but I know plenty who started with Maya as well.
  • HitmonInfinity
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    HitmonInfinity polycounter lvl 11
    DEElekgolo wrote: »
    Oh boy here we go

    My thoughts exactly. I feel like polycount should host a formal debate on Maya vs Max... and it should be like a TED talk or something. Could be awesome.
  • Dashiva
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    Dashiva triangle
    My thoughts exactly. I feel like polycount should host a formal debate on Maya vs Max... and it should be like a TED talk or something. Could be awesome.

    The answer would probably be "Modo."
  • Dashiva
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    Dashiva triangle
    LMP wrote: »
    The ease of learning environment modelling has nothing to do with the program you use. The program is only a tool. I started learning with Maya, learned Max a few years later but now I use Max at work.

    Ok, then another good question would be what makes learning environment modeling easier? Are there three or four things you wish you would have known when you started?
  • Lamont
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    Lamont polycounter lvl 15
    One application doesn't make it easier over the other. I say toss a coin and choose if you're on the fence. Both are acquired tastes.

    I started with Maya at work, now my new job is 3DS Max. I use the same tools(different name) same output.

    TED talk? We gotta reach the kids, so Epic Rap Battle.
  • Dashiva
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    Dashiva triangle
    Lamont wrote: »
    One application doesn't make it easier over the other. I say toss a coin and choose if you're on the fence. Both are acquired tastes.

    I started with Maya at work, now my new job is 3DS Max. I use the same tools(different name) same output.

    TED talk? We gotta reach the kids, so Epic Rap Battle.

    Yeah, I'm old so I'd be TED. Plus I'm more of a Huey than a Riley. I guess I'll keep chugging on Maya. http://cgbylg.com/?p=204 is cool by the way, I'd like to find a tutorial on how to do that stair case.
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    Lamont wrote: »

    TED talk? We gotta reach the kids, so Epic Rap Battle.

    EPIC RAP BATTLES OF HISTORY!

    I was about to write out some rap battles for max/maya but I forgot I can rap. Spent 15 minutes trying to come up with something, all I came up with was a line about max's UI is dookie, it is a bigger waste of space than Jersey Shores Snooki.
  • DeadlyFreeze
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    DeadlyFreeze polycounter lvl 17
    It was a lot more fun when autodesk didn't own everything.
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    Yeah why did they need to buy out softimage
  • zakhar2
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    zakhar2 polycounter lvl 6
    Heh.All these plebs using "packages" and "modeling software". Be a real man and just write vertex coordinates in notepad.
  • Dashiva
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    Dashiva triangle
    zakhar2 wrote: »
    Heh.All these plebs using "packages" and "modeling software". Be a real man and just write vertex coordinates in notepad.

    I prefer to code each pixel output individually in assembly.
  • Pancakes
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    Pancakes polycounter lvl 10
    Use blender for now. It's simple to learn another program when necessary. You can do it within a week. The program that you should be more concerned about learning is photoshop to be honest with you
  • gray
    It was a lot more fun when autodesk didn't own everything.

    i tend to agree. someone needs to come up with some new cg related issues to send the art nerds into a rage. all this hippie drum circle business is a bit boring.
  • mLichy
  • dpaynter26
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    dpaynter26 polycounter lvl 11
    Pancakes wrote: »
    Use blender for now. It's simple to learn another program when necessary. You can do it within a week. The program that you should be more concerned about learning is photoshop to be honest with you

    I feel like that's the worst advice I've ever seen someone give..........
  • seforin
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    seforin polycounter lvl 17
    I can imagine the 1st diss for epic rap battle

    MAX:Yo MAYA, Sukah Cant Do shit proper so You need a Tech artist to modify yah! Bitch I got Them Modifiers!

    MAYA: Bitch please , Ever see a movie animated in yah? This is why Pixar will never love yah! Go home and Cry to your mom , and while your at it tell her to teach you how to snap your meshs to the grid!


    lolol
  • dpaynter26
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    dpaynter26 polycounter lvl 11
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    I'd like to hear from someone who learned Blender first & then learned how to use Max or Maya because to quote the Wikipedia entry:
    "Blender has had a reputation of being difficult to learn for users accustomed to other 3D graphics software."

    So maybe people who learned other apps first aren't the right people to give advice on what you should start with.

    I learned on Maya but I switched to Max while doing an art test for a Max based studio. It took roughly 2 evenings of video tutorials to switch over, that was enough knowledge to finish an art test and get a job, I learned the rest on site.
  • DEElekgolo
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    DEElekgolo interpolator
    Adobe should make a 3d package so everyone can shut up and so it can play nice with photoshop
  • Dashiva
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    Dashiva triangle
    I'd like to hear from someone who learned Blender first & then learned how to use Max or Maya because to quote the Wikipedia entry:
    "Blender has had a reputation of being difficult to learn for users accustomed to other 3D graphics software."

    So maybe people who learned other apps first aren't the right people to give advice on what you should start with.

    I learned on Maya but I switched to Max while doing an art test for a Max based studio. It took roughly 2 evenings of video tutorials to switch over, that was enough knowledge to finish an art test and get a job, I learned the rest on site.

    I did technically learn Blender first. With Bmesh now there is essentially no qualitative difference between it and the basic the Maya modeling tools. If anything a lot of the Blender interface makes more intuitive sense if you don't know anything else. I think "extrude" and it's E, or S for scale, if you're an English speaker it's pretty intuitive. The problem with Blender is there are no good tutorials on game art workflow, at least for environmental stuff. I found myself going through tutorial and tutorial and not really finding a workflow that I could use. For 3ds Max or Maya there are 3 or 4 different sites that will teach me exactly what I want to know, so it saves a lot of time. Once I do have a handle on it, though I'd like to do a game art tutorial series in Blender.
  • Mark Dygert
    DEElekgolo wrote: »
    Adobe should make a 3d package so everyone can shut up and so it can play nice with photoshop
    Based on their 3D paint feature, I strongly encourage them to continue working on 2D...

    There is a lot they could do to photoshop to make it more friendly to traditional artists like some of the other apps out there, like art rage. Or they could help lefties out by allowing us to use the ctrl-alt-shift buttons on the right side of the keyboard...


    ... mother fuckers... its been 10+ years get it together!
    (I throw my Adobe mug on the floor hoping it will shatter, but it's carpeted so it doesn't actually break. This enrages me so I throw it at the window hoping to see it shatter on the sidewalk down below. But the window is bullet proof so it bounces back and hits me in the face... I say "you win adobe... for now" and go back to work)
  • r_fletch_r
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    r_fletch_r polycounter lvl 9
    mLichy wrote: »
    Max

    yeah, less buggy tools, and alot of very good tutorials.
  • Dashiva
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    Dashiva triangle
    r_fletch_r wrote: »
    yeah, less buggy tools, and alot of very good tutorials.

    Yeah, this is what I'm thinking. The tutorials seem to be better. But that Cry Engine exporter for Maya looks really nice...
  • aajohnny
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    aajohnny polycounter lvl 13
    Whatever floats your boat really. I honestly prefer 3ds max over maya. The modifiers are great, there are some pretty useful maxscripts, and as mentioned before there are a lot of tutorials out there for max. You can learn one and just transfer your skills over to the other, its not that big of a deal. It doesn't hurt trying both out though :)
  • Noodle!
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    Noodle! polycounter lvl 8
    The only answer needed is:

    It doesn't matter.
  • gray
    aajohnny wrote: »
    It doesn't hurt trying both out though :)

    that's the best advice. the only way to figure out which one is 'better' for you is to get a good grip on both tool sets. then you don't need to ask other people, you can make an informed decision based on which works better for you. and as a bonus you have broader understanding of modeling tools in general.
  • Alberto Rdrgz
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    Alberto Rdrgz polycounter lvl 9
    used max all my life, now my first studio job, i have to learn maya. so...
  • MrOneTwo
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    MrOneTwo polycounter lvl 12
    Noodle! wrote: »
    The only answer needed is:

    It doesn't matter.

    This... App is a tool. Like a hammer. Some people probably use brick instead of a hammer. Modelling is a modelling. You can use whatever tool you want. For env art choosing engine is more important. Modelling is straight forward... just model shit out.
  • dpaynter26
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    dpaynter26 polycounter lvl 11
    TBH it's really all about which you feel comfortable when you get into the toolset, I'm an avid maya user but i have used max and know how for the most part if i need to, i also have gotten accustomed to modo, i would suggeset taking a look at all three, try making a basic model in all three and decide which one seemed easiest to you then go with it


    As far as blender though........*shudders* i dont see that being much of a good idea
  • yodude87
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    yodude87 polycounter lvl 5
    I'd like to hear from someone who learned Blender first & then learned how to use Max or Maya because to quote the Wikipedia entry:
    "Blender has had a reputation of being difficult to learn for users accustomed to other 3D graphics software."

    here ^^

    started with blender, then later realized that it would take me nowhere, as the industry standards are mostly max and maya.

    left blender a couple years ago, and now only use max.

    blender was quite easy to learn, tbh. max has so much more subtleities. but if you take your time, learning max will give you way better results.

    and yes, other 3d apps are quite different when compared to blender. dunno, they feel different. maybe its just me tho.
  • FlynT
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    FlynT polycounter lvl 8
    Both have their strengths but i prefer Maya. For example in Max you can UV things faster but in Maya you can Model things much faster. In Maya you have the most important things right by your hand through the Hotbox or through Shift, Ctrl right-click contex menus. To say Maya could only be used efficiently for characters is stupid, its as good as Max when it comes to hard-surface modeling.

    But yeah, if you feel more comfortable with Maya then use it!
    Idk where other peoples have worked so far but until now i never had to switch from Maya to Max or any other package. Its good if you know the nuts and bolts of any major 3D or 2D package but they wont force you to learn a new program if you have a strong knowledge of another program that can do the same!

    A little hardcore scenario:
    The math is simple you're skilled in blender you can model nearly anything in no time, so now they say you have to learn Max or Maya since the rest of the department use it. You spend weeks on learning it, in that time you're more or less useless to the rest of the department. Until you are able to contribute efficiently to the rest of the team they loose valuable productivity. As long as they are not using a unique file format for their exports, you can use whatever you want as long as it supports the needed file format completely. But AGAIN! Its always good to know any major package so that you can switch to it if really needed.


    Anyway back to topic if you choose Maya then i got the perfect tutorial for you to learn Env-Modeling in Maya! Its by far the best i've ever seen, he goes over any useful technique to create assets in Maya and you will see that Maya could be extremely useful for hard-surface too ;)
    http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/store/product/955/
  • Visceral
    seforin wrote: »
    I can imagine the 1st diss for epic rap battle

    MAX:Yo MAYA, Sukah Cant Do shit proper so You need a Tech artist to modify yah! Bitch I got Them Modifiers!

    MAYA: Bitch please , Ever see a movie animated in yah? This is why Pixar will never love yah! Go home and Cry to your mom , and while your at it tell her to teach you how to snap your meshs to the grid!


    lolol

    You are so white. And yes that's the first and possibly the last time I will ever say that.
  • FlynT
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    FlynT polycounter lvl 8
    Visceral wrote: »
    You are so white.

    made my day ;)
  • Malus
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    Malus polycounter lvl 17
    Noodle! wrote: »
    The only answer needed is:

    It doesn't matter.

    ^^This.^^

    Each have pros and cons, just try both and the one you feel more comfortable with wins.
  • walreu
    I'd like to hear from someone who learned Blender first & then learned how to use Max or Maya because to quote the Wikipedia entry:
    "Blender has had a reputation of being difficult to learn for users accustomed to other 3D graphics software."

    Me!
    I have decided to go with Max. I do have Maya too, and the spacebar menu seems neat, but other than that, it feels alien to me. I mean, it took me a while to get a cube to the screen and select different polygons. Max in the other hand feels "heavy" ,but the good thing is that i usually can find what i try to look for. But comparing to Blender, i still don't get some of the things there. Like i would like it to have the same moving style, not to jerk the gizmos all the time. Also extruding is something i don't really get yet. When i want to extrude multiple faces or edges, it gives me weird results.. Blender just.. you know.. extrudes the faces or edges..

    And i agree about the earlier post saying it is important to learn Photoshop. There's a hint of thruth there. I mean, you can have as golden mesh as you want but it won't look good or work if you put shitty texture to it. But you can make a ,lets say, lowpoly mesh look awesome with good texture.

    But Max's cool. I'd vote for Max.
    The problem with Blender is there are no good tutorials on game art workflow, at least for environmental stuff. I found myself going through tutorial and tutorial and not really finding a workflow that I could use

    BlenderCookie has some. And the workflow doesn't differ from any other package so it can be practiced without blender specific tutorials no problem..
  • battlecow
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    battlecow polycounter lvl 12
  • Ghostscape
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    Ghostscape polycounter lvl 13
    e:^^ don't learn both, that's really shitty advice. If you spend 6 months learning 3ds Max or Maya, you're going to progress a lot farther in that piece of software than if you spend 3 months on each trying to learn them in tandem. Learn one piece of software really well, and you can transition later much easier. Trying to learn two at once is a recipe for mediocrity.
    FlynT wrote: »
    Its good if you know the nuts and bolts of any major 3D or 2D package but they wont force you to learn a new program if you have a strong knowledge of another program that can do the same!

    If you're working at a studio that rolls its own tools, this definitely isn't true, and even then, I can't see many studios that would support a split-software architecture as it makes moving from modeling to animation really difficult. Maybe, maybe on the environment art side, but this seems really fallacious to me.

    Have other people worked at a studio where this is the case?

    It doesn't matter which piece of software you use, but I feel more studios are moving towards Maya as it has better pipeline support (better scripting with Python and MEL compared to Maxscript, and the ability to get your engine running in the viewport means you can author assets to be in-game accurate in Maya, rather than needing to go to an intermediary software/engine tool to adjust shaders, lighting, etc.
  • PolyHertz
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    PolyHertz polycount lvl 666
    Environment modeling is all about the grid. And imo Modo has a nicer setup for the grid then Max or Maya.

    That said, Max and Maya are industry standards, so learn both.
    Visceral wrote: »
    You are so white.

    lulz.
  • FlynT
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    FlynT polycounter lvl 8
    I'm sorry if it was a bit unclear written! If a studio has their own tools than of course you have to use and learn them. What i meant was if a studio uses lets say Max and you use Maya it would be "pointless" to learn Max since they work pretty well together.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    FlynT wrote: »
    I'm sorry if it was a bit unclear written! If a studio has their own tools than of course you have to use and learn them. What i meant was if a studio uses lets say Max and you use Maya it would be "pointless" to learn Max since they work pretty well together.

    Sure, if you're a offsite freelancer you can use whatever you want but if you're on site a Max studio isn't going to spring the extra cash to buy you a Maya license
  • Bobby J Rice 3rd
    roosterMAP wrote: »
    Tbh, it really doesn't matter which you use. In the end, its just a package. Employers will higher people and tell them to use a different application and expect the same quality of work.

    Said best above.

    However, the best package to use, in my opinion, is Softimage XSI. Encredible streamlined modeling and rendering workflow.
  • Dashiva
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    Dashiva triangle
    Crazyeyes wrote: »
    Said best above.

    However, the best package to use, in my opinion, is Softimage XSI. Encredible streamlined modeling and rendering workflow.

    Yeah, I wish. Honestly I have the mod tool and it seems like the most...um....parsimonious way to model. Especially on the grid. However, I haven't seen any jobs posted for it aside from those in the VFX fields.

    As for now I think I'll probably stick with Maya. It's closer to Blender in workflow style and I find I can move pretty easily between the two with the same-ish results. I think Blender is going to become more important as the the mobile market expands, too, with Unity. I can't afford a Maya/Max license which would be important if I wanted to freelance in the future, so I think the my goal is to learn Maya / Blender concurrently.

    Also, it looks to me like they might have fixed the baking problem in a recent patch, and along with the GSoC improvements (see sushi and bratwurst) Blender really isn't that far apart from the Autodesk stuff for personal use. Also see BSurfaces.

    But anyway, thanks for the help. If anyone else is reading this thread with the same question, if I could do it over I probably would have started with 3ds Max because of the tutorial availability alone. Still, I'm finding that I can do most of the Max tutorials in Maya and it helps me learn the tools that much better.
  • FlynT
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    FlynT polycounter lvl 8
    You don't have to buy a license for Autodesk products! Just head over to http://students.autodesk.com/

    Hit Register in the upper right corner, fill out the form and choose Unemployed. Continue to step 2, 3 and confirm your email.

    Now you're able to download legal any software you want for free. Of course for personal use only.

    Thanks Autodesk :)
  • Dashiva
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    Dashiva triangle
    FlynT wrote: »
    You don't have to buy a license for Autodesk products! Just head over to http://students.autodesk.com/

    Hit Register in the upper right corner, fill out the form and choose Unemployed. Continue to step 2, 3 and confirm your email.

    Now you're able to download legal any software you want for free. Of course for personal use only.

    Thanks Autodesk :)


    Student licenses (which I have for both Max and Maya) are non-commercial only. So if I wanted to sell any model I made I would have to fork over 4100 bucks (or pounds, I'm in the UK atm, they really get you coming and going) for Maya and Mudbox. It's my primary reason for learning Blender at the same time.
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